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Pontius Navigator 29th Apr 2019 20:55


Originally Posted by Cornish Jack (Post 10459199)
Where would one find precedence for the wishes of 37.179% of a State's voting population imposing their wishes on the remainder?

Well what normally happens is that 37.179% of a State's voting population elects more than 50% of the MPs who promise to legislate as they would wish.

In the case of the referendum that 37.179% was directly equivalent to more than 50% of the MPs. Unfortunately the actually MPs who should have enacted the Act couldn't reach agreement.

Krystal n chips 30th Apr 2019 05:05

I am concerned as to the fact, that, an already overstretched NHS devoid as it is of £350m could be stretched to breaking point with the influx of patients from on here, and in the real world. whose cherished and enshrined perceptions the Guardian is never critical of Labour may have become irrevocably shattered in recent times and even more so with this.......

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...brexit-cartoon

ATNotts 30th Apr 2019 15:41

Another boost to UK manufacturing on the back of Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48103070

Anyone who tries to make out that irrespective of Brexit the new Defender was to be made in Slovakia is fooling themselves; pre the whole Jane 2016 farce there would have been no question as to where it would be made - Solihull. The tragedy is that we still don't know when or indeed whether we will leave the EU - but the damage has already been done, and continues to be done to the UK manufacturing economy at least.

The Nip 30th Apr 2019 15:59


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 10459843)
Another boost to UK manufacturing on the back of Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48103070

Anyone who tries to make out that irrespective of Brexit the new Defender was to be made in Slovakia is fooling themselves; pre the whole Jane 2016 farce there would have been no question as to where it would be made - Solihull. The tragedy is that we still don't know when or indeed whether we will leave the EU - but the damage has already been done, and continues to be done to the UK manufacturing economy at least.

Where did you get your info from that there would be no question it would be made in Solihull?

You have straightaway blamed BREXIT when you have no proof either way.

This is from Businessdesk today;

JLR added that the decision is “in parallel with plans for significant investment at the company’s Solihull plant” to support the production of the next generation of flagship Range Rover and Land Rover models.

The current Defender model was built at the firm’s Solihull factory for around 67 years until 2016.

The manufacturer opened a £1bn manufacturing facility in Nitra, Slovakia, employing 1,5000 staff, last October.

I know nothing about the how much capacity JLR need. This article from Businessdesk gives another reason than your totally biased view that BREXIT is to blame for everything.

ATNotts 30th Apr 2019 16:10


Originally Posted by The Nip (Post 10459856)


Where did you get your info from that there would be no question it would be made in Solihull?

You have straightaway blamed BREXIT when you have no proof either way.

This is from Businessdesk today;

JLR added that the decision is “in parallel with plans for significant investment at the company’s Solihull plant” to support the production of the next generation of flagship Range Rover and Land Rover models.

The current Defender model was built at the firm’s Solihull factory for around 67 years until 2016.

The manufacturer opened a £1bn manufacturing facility in Nitra, Slovakia, employing 1,5000 staff, last October.

I know nothing about the how much capacity JLR need. This article from Businessdesk gives another reason than your totally biased view that BREXIT is to blame for everything.

Given that the Defender's main markets are going to be outside of the EU it makes little strategic sense to build it within the EU as opposed to outside. In fact, with all the brilliant trade deals that Liam Fox is going to be signing imminently, there are enough reason why it absolutely should have been made in Solihull (or another UK plant).

I am sorry, you can stick you fingers in your ears and sing "la la" at the top of you voice all you like, but one of the downsides of your pet project is the effect on UK manufacturing, nothing you or any other of the extreme Brexiteers is going to admit to it though. There may be some benefits to leaving, aside of (not) taking back control - ref the USA trying to tell us who we should and who we shouldn't engage to build G5 mobile communications by hardly veiled threats - but manufacturing is not, and will not be one of the winners.

The Nip 30th Apr 2019 16:42


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 10459866)
Given that the Defender's main markets are going to be outside of the EU it makes little strategic sense to build it within the EU as opposed to outside. In fact, with all the brilliant trade deals that Liam Fox is going to be signing imminently, there are enough reason why it absolutely should have been made in Solihull (or another UK plant).

I am sorry, you can stick you fingers in your ears and sing "la la" at the top of you voice all you like, but one of the downsides of your pet project is the effect on UK manufacturing, nothing you or any other of the extreme Brexiteers is going to admit to it though. There may be some benefits to leaving, aside of (not) taking back control - ref the USA trying to tell us who we should and who we shouldn't engage to build G5 mobile communications by hardly veiled threats - but manufacturing is not, and will not be one of the winners.

Well am I sure since you know all about UK manufacturing, IF A50 is rescinded then all these manufacturers would flock back would they not?

Or will they, in the case of JLR, stick in a lower manufacturing cost base to maximize their profits. As JLR is Indian, they will do what they need to do to make more money. They are doing badly at the moment.

BREXIT isn't a pet project. It was voted for by the majority of those eligible to vote. You can cry and moan as much as you like, it can't and won't be solved to anybody's satisfaction. The vote happened. You can't changed history.

ATNotts 30th Apr 2019 17:05


Well am I sure since you know all about UK manufacturing, IF A50 is rescinded then all these manufacturers would flock back would they not?
Sadly no, the decision will have been made and what goes will be lost for a good while - one hesitates to say never. That is the tragedy of the current situation; whilst our inadequate politicians fiddle, making no decisions whatsoever, the manufacturing economy, along with the distribution economy is suffering, although admittedly the recent bout of stockpiling has done the latter sector no harm. How much harm it has done to the cashflow of the businesses using the warehousing for stockpiling will only become evident in the next 6 - 12 months.


BREXIT isn't a pet project. It was voted for by the majority of those eligible to vote. You can cry and moan as much as you like, it can't and won't be solved to anybody's satisfaction. The vote happened. You can't changed history.
That I am afraid is factually incorrect. Leave won by a narrow majority of those who voted NOT of those eligible to vote. It is possible to change history, if the political will is there to do it, but realistically only by means of another referendum. Whether there are enough MPs with the courage to offer such another vote is debatable. Corbyn, judging from the result of his party meeting this afternoon, is still perched precariously on his fence; the Tories are unlikely to vote for one in significant numbers as present - the rest of the parties in parliament can be relied upon to vote for one. The numbers aren't there now, by later this summer they could be; only time will tell.

Krystal n chips 30th Apr 2019 17:13

" The vote happened. You can't changed history "

True, however you can alleviate the detrimental effects of history with future implementation to negate the consequences of this fundamentally flawed decision.....simple blind acquiescence is not an option when the future and prosperity of the UK and the population per se are at stake for, potentially, generations to come.

Anyway, as you will have done 30 years in the RAF, your pension will render you immune to any financial adversity, unlike millions who do not have this safety net to rely on.

ATNotts 30th Apr 2019 17:28


Originally Posted by Krystal n chips (Post 10459904)
" The vote happened. You can't changed history "

True, however you can alleviate the detrimental effects of history with future implementation to negate the consequences of this fundamentally flawed decision.....simple blind acquiescence is not an option when the future and prosperity of the UK and the population per se are at stake for, potentially, generations to come.

Anyway, as you will have done 30 years in the RAF, your pension will render you immune to any financial adversity, unlike millions who do not have this safety net to rely on.

You are forgetting that democracy so far as the UK and it's relationship with the EU is concerned ended on 24th June 2016. It really doesn't matter if we're still in the EU in 10 years time, there are those who will insist that we have to keep faith with "the will of the people" despite possibly several million of those people will have shuffled off their mortal coils by then. What I want to know is just how long is the EU referendum result valid if we still haven't left. I would say 5 years at a push.

Cornish Jack 30th Apr 2019 18:01

" It was voted for by the majority of those eligible to vote. "
Ummm :confused: Tiresome as this particular piece of political idiocy is (and will be!), the Brexit camp have propagated enough doubtful claptrap without trying outright lies!! ... or is it just lack of mathematical skill??
UK voter eligibility 2016 - 46, 800,000. Total vote cast for Leave - 17,410.742. Having been educated when mental arithmetic was a normal talent, I have some difficulty over "majority" My £4.95 desk calculator makes it 37.2% ... odd sort of majority and makes the point nicely, that much LESS than half the UK's voters are trying to foist their Little England prejudices on the ACTUAL majority. Given that it all stems from the inability of the Tories to keep their 'Broad Church' singing from the same hymnbook, perhaps this is just an actual example of 'Newspeak' and George Orwell was just being a bit previous!:yuk:

Pontius Navigator 30th Apr 2019 18:07

ATNotts, unduly pessimistic. There will be an election within 3 years. If party A makes remaining in the EU, or rejoining the EU, as its principal manifesto promise and party B that they will continue outside the EU, then you will effectively have a referendum.

Sallyann1234 30th Apr 2019 20:46


Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator (Post 10459933)
ATNotts, unduly pessimistic. There will be an election within 3 years. If party A makes remaining in the EU, or rejoining the EU, as its principal manifesto promise and party B that they will continue outside the EU, then you will effectively have a referendum.

But will either party dare to make such a 'principal manifesto promise', knowing that whichever it chooses will alienate about half of its usual voters?

The Nip 30th Apr 2019 21:40


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 10459901)
That I am afraid is factually incorrect. Leave won by a narrow majority of those who voted NOT of those eligible to vote.

How can my statement be factually incorrect?
In every election/referendum there is always a line drawn defining who can, and who cannot vote.
The rules were made and voted on by all parties.
The rules also included that 1 vote would be enough. You can find someone else to argue with about the rules etc if you want to. Fill your boots.
The public did not make the rules.

If you voted then you were eligible. If you were eligible but didn't vote then that is their problem.

On Thursday there are local elections. Many people are eligible but won't vote. How does that change the result?

Nothing I wrote was factually wrong. Where is your source re JLR making the new Defender in the UK prior to BREXIT?


kkbuk 30th Apr 2019 21:45


Originally Posted by The Nip (Post 10459887)


Well am I sure since you know all about UK manufacturing, IF A50 is rescinded then all these manufacturers would flock back would they not?

Or will they, in the case of JLR, stick in a lower manufacturing cost base to maximize their profits. As JLR is Indian, they will do what they need to do to make more money. They are doing badly at the moment.

BREXIT isn't a pet project. It was voted for by the majority of those eligible to vote. You can cry and moan as much as you like, it can't and won't be solved to anybody's satisfaction. The vote happened. You can't changed history.

You are wrong in your statement that the majority of those eligible to vote voted for Brexit. The majority of those who voted plumped for Brexit. A subtle difference in words but it means that most of those who were eligible to vote DID NOT vote for Brexit

G0ULI 30th Apr 2019 22:02


Originally Posted by kkbuk (Post 10460097)
You are wrong in your statement that the majority of those eligible to vote voted for Brexit. The majority of those who voted plumped for Brexit. A subtle difference in words but it means that most of those who were eligible to vote DID NOT vote for Brexit

By the same logic even more of those who were eligible to vote DID NOT vote for Remain!

A majority of 1.7 million is not a slim margin. A million or more of anything is a huge amount. The weight of one gram is hardly detectable. 1.7 million grams amounts to the weight of a family saloon car. Hence Brexit amounts to car crash politics! The UK is still leaving the EU though despite the current hiatus imposed to calm the public response to the political inertia in Westminster.

As far as JLR are concerned, building the Defender in a country where labour costs are cheaper makes sense. There is nowhere near as much profit made from the Defender as the more upmarket models. In any case, the Defender is primarily marketed towards third world nations where ansolute costs buying and maintaining a vehicle are important. The new Defender was never going to be built in the UK Brexit or not.

Alsacienne 30th Apr 2019 22:26


You are wrong in your statement that the majority of those eligible to vote voted for Brexit. The majority of those who voted plumped for Brexit. A subtle difference in words but it means that most of those who were eligible to vote DID NOT vote for Brexit
But there are many of us UK citizens who were denied the right to vote because of the 15 years' absence rule. Most of us living peacefully in the EU and still linked to the UK by paying tax & national insurance, and providing income by visiting friends and family, spending whilst there, and buying UK goods either in person or via the Internet .... so we do contribute still to the UK economy.

HOW MANY OF THE ELECTORATE WERE DENIED THE RIGHT TO DETERMINE HOW THEIR LIVES WOULD CONTINUE AFTER THE BREXIT CHAOS? Far more than you might think and perhaps enough of us to change the situation! And what a Mad Hatter's Tea Party has ensued. A crying shame, and embarrasses us all in Europe and far wider.

Krystal n chips 1st May 2019 05:06


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10460036)
But will either party dare to make such a 'principal manifesto promise', knowing that whichever it chooses will alienate about half of its usual voters?

Unfortunately, neither party is ever likely to offer such an option in a manifesto.....on one side we have Treeza, whose gross ineptitude will keep historians gainfully employed with their analysis of events for decades to come....on the other, there's Corbyn now competing with her " U " turns in the form of vacillations ......

However, whilst the happy couple continue in their merry desecration of politics, there is, as had been suggested by several MSM commentators, the very real danger of right wing extremist gaining a foothold in mainstream politics .......and that possibility is truly frightening to contemplate

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-circumstances

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...brexit-cartoon

ATNotts 1st May 2019 07:16


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10460036)
But will either party dare to make such a 'principal manifesto promise', knowing that whichever it chooses will alienate about half of its usual voters?

If "Party A" were the Tories, and "Party B" Labour, then the former would have no problem plumping wholeheartedly for "Leave" as a result of it's pretty radical lurch to the right of UK politics; I suspect, sadly, that under the current management, "Party B" will continue to procrastinate, offering mixed messages in an attempt to "fool all of the people all of the time" since it's membership is almost toally out of step with it's electoral base. Yesterday's fudge is evidence of that.

I suspect the on the committed remain side will be Change UK and the LibDems; and on the committed leave side, the Brexit Party and UKIP.

General elections of course aren't, or at least shouldn't be fought around a single issue; that is what referenda are for. As it is you get daft, and totally misleading statement from the leave brigade that "80% of voters in 2017 supported leave parties" and trying to make out that is de facto an 80 / 20 result for leaving which is total nonsense.

Sallyann1234 1st May 2019 07:49


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 10460282)
If "Party A" were the Tories, and "Party B" Labour, then the former would have no problem plumping wholeheartedly for "Leave" as a result of it's pretty radical lurch to the right of UK politics;

The Tories have lurched to the right while in power. But approaching a GE they will have to soften a little in order not to lose the committed Remainers. Even the wretched ERG don't want to lose power. I have already committed to not giving them my usual vote and I'm certain there are many more of us.
​​​​​​

ATNotts 1st May 2019 08:07


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10460300)
The Tories have lurched to the right while in power. But approaching a GE they will have to soften a little in order not to lose the committed Remainers. Even the wretched ERG don't want to lose power. I have already committed to not giving them my usual vote and I'm certain there are many more of us.
​​​​​​

I know it's not the way that the UK system is supposed to work, but my decision on whether to vote for Conservative, or Change UK will depend on which faction of the Tory party wins out. If it's any of JR-M or his cronies, and certainly BoJo my vote will go elsewhere. My current MP is no longer a Tory so another factor will be jut how extreme the new Tory candidate in Broxtowe turns out to be. If they are a rabid Brexiteer then irrespective of the party leader, my vote will move.


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