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Sallyann1234 23rd Mar 2019 11:05


I just hope that we manage to avoid military involvement next time,
Well that's the one bit you did get right. We could hardly duplicate D Day could we.

Perhaps a couple of nukes on Brussels and Strasburg would do the job. :ok:

NoelEvans 23rd Mar 2019 11:19


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10427545)
Well that's the one bit you did get right. We could hardly duplicate D Day could we.

Perhaps a couple of nukes on Brussels and Strasburg would do the job. :ok:

One of the most ridiculous posts that I have seen for a long time.

(By the way, the seat of your beloved parliament is spelt "Strasbourg".)

Sallyann1234 23rd Mar 2019 11:23


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10427557)
One of the most ridiculous posts that I have seen for a long time.

(By the way, the seat of your beloved parliament is spelt "Strasbourg".)

I'm glad you are amused. We could all do with some laughter at the moment.

Sprogget 23rd Mar 2019 11:57


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10427505)
The world has changed and answers to problems are not always military any more. I can't predict how it will happen this time but maybe Britain could help with some kind of 'Marshal Plan' after the 'yellow vests' and Macron's army, German motor manufacturers cheating, Italian budget chaos, Belgian disunity, Hungarian immigration policies, Spanish separatism problems, and the various 'populist' uprisings have brought Europe to its economic knees. However it happens, Britain will be able to help best from the outside, as they did so successfully when they stepped in from the outside to help save Europe from itself in the 18th and 19th Centuries and twice in the 20th Century. I just hope that we manage to avoid military involvement next time, but that (as every time in the past) will depend on the nature of chaos that the Europeans bring on themselves.

This is lauaghable but maybe not for the swivel eyed conspiratorial connecting of disparate events, weaved into some far fetched narrative. Brexiteers imagine themselves to be breaking free of some kind of German third reich, a form of concentration camp, where the plucky British spirit is cowed by evil Europeans, intent on quelling a restless population.

The problem, that stems from this belief, assuming we've taken steps to leave, as we have, is the self bit of self government. You have to ask yourself - what is the 'self' part of the British state? You've done the easy bit, had a nationalist revolution, had the them vs us part, now what? You may think Brexit appeals to some collective form of Britishness, but this is the moment when it dramatically unravels. You only have to look around you to see, even for one moment, the ravines created in the polity, the people, everywhere you look.

You could, were you being honest, tell me that Brexit is a fantastic form of projection, a deep & honestly held sense of grievance against the way you're being governed but that how we arrived here, today is a deflection onto Europe. It's a culmination of generations of slow moving divisions, the loosening of Scotland & Wales, the winners & losers of Thatcherism, the country outside London, all of that. Brexit, in a worst-of-all-worlds moment, bringing all of these divisions to a head while doing absolutely nothing to address them. It reveals a statethat cannot create consensus because it lacks a foundation in social consent.

This is the problem you have with nationalism & self dtermination. You get to do the nationalism part, but the self element, not so easy is it? We see poorly articulated narrative from supposed winners in this, talking about military action in Europe, what does that kind of language do for anything? Where does it take you? Only up a blind alley of fighting a war in your head over & over again. This kind of nationalism does this every time, it takes you to your destination like a horse only for you to find on arrival that the beast has died & is now a burden.

That's what Brexit is, a dead horse & it started rotting on the 24th June 2016. It can't carry you to the promised land, it can only leave you here where there are thousands on the streets, a zombie government, a fate being decided by others in locked European rooms. All it offers is a netherworld between vague patriotic fantasies & annoyingly persistent realities but because leave won the vote, it can't get off the dead horse. Be careful what you wish for.

Steepclimb 23rd Mar 2019 12:01

So let me get this right. The British are leaving the EU so they can save Europe from themselves again apparently. Or is it from the Germans again or the French again?

It's the old cry we saved your asses. Except it the USA who saved the British ass and the rest.

They won't save you this time. British sorry no English arrogance and hubris has brought you to this moment but let me tell you Europe doesn't need you as much as you need Europe.

The picture in the first post is quite apt. Like the gentlemen in the poster the UK is past its best, living off past glories but gradually falling apart. Soon to be consigned to history. I wonder if the English are prepared to be an independent country again? Because most likely the result of all this chest beating nationalism is the end of the the UK. Not the EU.

Deeply ironic that.


pax britanica 23rd Mar 2019 12:22

the we were far too busy liberating it- er well ithingk the Red Army might have a small claim on that and the Americans-its not to downplay us but it was the US and USSR who won if thats the word WW2 .

It is just that attitude that we are always the best is the reason for our decline over my life time

British cars were the best-except they werent , British democracy is the best-yeah really
We have the best health service- except that we dont and have a child mortality rate worse than some Caribbean countries these days
We invesnted the railways -well we did but look what happened to them
Our legal system is the best-Hmmm -not bad but the best.

As for the old boy on the poster he probably had the brains to say -we are going through all this again

we are a very nice country in lots of ways and a good country too for the most part but it isnt 1820 any more, the channel is just a railway tunnel now not a chasm that protected us from attack and invasion for centuries and its the oirony of ironies that almost all remainers are doing what they beilev is the right thing for their country going forward whereas far to many brexiteers are falling into the Nazi Germany trap of -its all the fault of foreigners , we have been betrayed etc . Well probaly the most patriotic organisation in Europe for 100 years was the SS but that didnt make them right did it

NoelEvans 23rd Mar 2019 12:32


Originally Posted by Steepclimb (Post 10427588)
So let me get this right. The British are leaving the EU so they can save Europe from themselves again apparently. Or is it from the Germans again or the French again?...

Please try to read carefully. That ('bold' above) was never said. But it was said that Britain leaving would enable that opportunity if needed. We don't know "who" it will be "again", there is too much going wrong right now to be able to predict accurately.


Originally Posted by Steepclimb (Post 10427588)
...
It's the old cry we saved your asses. Except it the USA who saved the British ass and the rest.

...

If the US had taken the advice of their ambassador in 1940, they would have abandoned Britain and would never have become involved in Europe a few years later. Britain did better than their ambassador said they would and that enabled the USA to come to Europe's assistance.


Originally Posted by Steepclimb (Post 10427588)
... but let me tell you Europe doesn't need you as much as you need Europe....

You sound like an expert in the field. Please tell us more?


Originally Posted by Steepclimb (Post 10427588)
... the UK is past its best, living off past glories but gradually falling apart. Soon to be consigned to history.

Quite a lot of living in the future and not falling apart that I see around me. Could you point to any specifics that you are a specialist on?


Originally Posted by Steepclimb (Post 10427588)
... most likely the result of all this chest beating nationalism is the end of the the UK. Not the EU.

Deeply ironic that.

Have you had a discussion with the many nationalist movements on the rise within the EU on that one? "Deeply ironic that"!


​​​​​​​

NoelEvans 23rd Mar 2019 12:50


Originally Posted by Sprogget (Post 10427585)
This is lauaghable but maybe not for the swivel eyed conspiratorial connecting of disparate events, weaved into some far fetched narrative. Brexiteers imagine themselves to be breaking free of some kind of German third reich, a form of concentration camp, where the plucky British spirit is cowed by evil Europeans, intent on quelling a restless population.

...

That's what Brexit is, a dead horse & it started rotting on the 24th June 2016. It can't carry you to the promised land, it can only leave you here where there are thousands on the streets, a zombie government, a fate being decided by others in locked European rooms. All it offers is a netherworld between vague patriotic fantasies & annoyingly persistent realities but because leave won the vote, it can't get off the dead horse. Be careful what you wish for.

I have attempted to talk about the future with very broad references to the past. You blinkered, 'swivel eyed' Remoaners are the ones trying to dredge up your own idea of specifics from the past that I am just not referring to.

And if you want a very, very uptodate example of "... intent on quelling a restless population", look no further than the troops being brought in for the protests in France!

And if I can modify your final paragraph:

That's what the EU is, a dead horse & it started rotting on the day the Lisbon Treaty was signed. It can't carry you to the promised land, it can only leave you here where there are thousands on the streets (France), a zombie government (I remember the Belgian 530 days to form a government), a fate (like budget decisions) being decided by others in locked European rooms. All it offers is a netherworld between vague fantasies & annoyingly persistent realities but because it is the glorious 'European Project', it can't get off the dead horse. Be careful what you wish for.

That's a bit more realistic.

Hussar 54 23rd Mar 2019 12:50


Originally Posted by Steepclimb (Post 10427588)
So let me get this right. The British are leaving the EU so they can save Europe from themselves again apparently. Or is it from the Germans again or the French again?

It's the old cry we saved your asses. Except it the USA who saved the British ass and the rest.

They won't save you this time. British sorry no English arrogance and hubris has brought you to this moment but let me tell you Europe doesn't need you as much as you need Europe.

The picture in the first post is quite apt. Like the gentlemen in the poster the UK is past its best, living off past glories but gradually falling apart. Soon to be consigned to history. I wonder if the English are prepared to be an independent country again? Because most likely the result of all this chest beating nationalism is the end of the the UK. Not the EU.

Deeply ironic that.


All, and I repeat, all my English family members and friends would love to rid themselves of the Irish problem and, especially, the Scots.

Not sure if they are representative of the whole of England, but they're fed up to the back teeth of pouring money into a part of the UK which doesn't want to be a part of the UK and another part of the UK where half the population supported terrorism against UK citizens and 20 years later still can't get along well enough to form an administration.

Headstone 23rd Mar 2019 13:03

Noel - I'm afraid you are on a loser here as they are already misquoting you, adding words and twisting any opposite arguement. Good Nazi/Communist anti democratic tactic. They do not understand and can't get that people voted to leave. If only 2% of people bothered to vote and 1.1% said leave and 0.9% said stay then leave is indeed the will of the people. That is how democracies work but this lot don't want that - they want their way and the rest can just shut up. As I mentioned earlier they would have been dancing in the street and celebrating victory and saying we must all accept the result if the figures had been reversed.
By the way just a few posts above one commentator bemoaned the fact that "MORONS" were blocking the M6 with lorries to protest at the prospect of no brexit. Didn't see much mention of that on the news so who was affected by this demo or was it Project Fear again? However would he like to comment on the lead story on the BBCs website as it appears the centre of London is completely blocked today. Roads closed, pavements blocked, tons of litter everywhere. Must be because it is the educated Intelligentsia and not Morons.

MFC_Fly 23rd Mar 2019 13:14


Originally Posted by old,not bold (Post 10427463)
That's odd; I personally think there is a good chance that a large proportion of them may have thought about voting remain but were so sure the remain vote would get through that they didn’t bother.

I really don't care how people think other people may have voted. The simple fact is that they didn't bother to vote and therefore, as far as I am concerned, their view on this is irrelevant. If they wanted their views to have been relevant then they should have put their X on the referendum paper and made them relevant at the time.

Sprogget 23rd Mar 2019 13:18


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10427618)

And if you want a very, very uptodate example of "... intent on quelling a restless population", look no further than the troops being brought in for the protests in France!
.

Oh dear. You really ought to read it again, as the meaning has clearly not conveyed. Or not, epitomising the points made is quite delicious really.

Hussar 54 23rd Mar 2019 13:19

HEADSTONE

The intriguing thing is that they could all go and live in any of 27 other EU countries post Brexit but won't.

Just think how much pressure would be released away from public services and housing shortages if only half of them followed their dream and invested fully in being a fully paid up European citizen in, say, Bulgaria or Latvia or even Ireland.

They could even come here, but if I was them I'd wait until we get a new President....

MFC_Fly 23rd Mar 2019 13:22


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10427510)
350million that we would rather spend on the NHS?

Are that old contorted chestnut again. Please show me where any leave campaign said we would spend 350m on the NHS.


Sprogget 23rd Mar 2019 13:22


Originally Posted by Hussar 54 (Post 10427641)
The intriguing thing is that they could all go and live in any of 27 other EU countries post Brexit but won't.

Just think how much pressure would be released away from public services and housing shortages if only half of them followed their dream and invested fully in being a fully paid up European citizen in, say, Bulgaria or Latvia or Ireland.

You, as a non British citizen,living in France, sticking an oar into British Politics on a daily basis have a credibility problem. And that's before we come to the actual nastiness of that view. Don't like it? F**k off then. Charming.

Hussar 54 23rd Mar 2019 13:30


Originally Posted by Sprogget (Post 10427646)
You, as a non British citizen,living in France, sticking an oar into British Politics on a daily basis have a credibility problem. And that's before we come to the actual nastiness of that view. Don't like it? F**k off then. Charming.


You see....Abuse and vitriol and outright hostility to reason is their trademark.

My credibility problem, as you call it, was explained on the other UK thread - I suggest you read it before you mouth off again.


MFC_Fly 23rd Mar 2019 13:31


Originally Posted by Hussar 54 (Post 10427619)
but they're fed up to the back teeth of pouring money into a part of the UK which doesn't want to be a part of the UK

The problem with that is that they do want to be a part of the UK. Remember the (other) referendum? More people wanted to stay than wanted to leave the UK. Or are you following the lead of some here that don't want to accept what the majority voted for?


Hussar 54 23rd Mar 2019 13:34


Originally Posted by MFC_Fly (Post 10427655)
The problem with that is that they do want to be a part of the UK. Remember the (other) referendum? More people wanted to stay than wanted to leave the UK. Or are you following the lead of some here that don't want to accept what the majority voted for?


Heavens forbid.....They're not, are they ?


Sprogget 23rd Mar 2019 13:34


Originally Posted by Hussar 54 (Post 10427654)
You see....Abuse and vitriol and outright hostility to reason is their trademark.

My credibility problem, as you call it, was explained on the other UK thread - I suggest you read it before you mouth off again.

What abuse? Why is it the moment you are challenged on frankly, abhorrent opinions, you immediately start crying like a small child that you've been abused? Christ man, have the courage of your convictions & stand up for yourself. Pointing out you have a credibility issue is not abuse. Translating your opinion itnto earthy language is not abuse & if you think it is, then you've failed to understand what was written, The alternative of course, is a wilful misreading in order to cause trouble, Neither is a good look on a grow man,

Pontius Navigator 23rd Mar 2019 13:34


Originally Posted by Sprogget (Post 10427646)
Don't like it? F**k off then. Charming.

Charming indeed.
​​​​
It is said that he who shouts and swears has lost the argument.

Hussar 54 23rd Mar 2019 13:40


Originally Posted by Sprogget (Post 10427661)
What abuse? Why is it the moment you are challenged on frankly, abhorrent opinions, you immediately start crying like a small child that you've been abused? Christ man, have the courage of your convictions & stand up for yourself. Pointing out you have a credibility issue is not abuse. Translating your opinion itnto earthy language is not abuse & if you think it is, then you've failed to understand what was written, The alternative of course, is a wilful misreading in order to cause trouble, Neither is a good look on a grow man,


I understood perfectly what was written....And the intent with which it was written.


Sprogget 23rd Mar 2019 14:01


Originally Posted by Hussar 54 (Post 10427666)
I understood perfectly what was written....And the intent with which it was written.

Ah then you decided to be dishonest. At least we know what we're dealing with then. Good to know.

Hussar 54 23rd Mar 2019 14:34


Originally Posted by Sprogget (Post 10427676)
Ah then you decided to be dishonest. At least we know what we're dealing with then. Good to know.


I know perfectly well what F**k Off means.

When you're in a hole, stop digging.

Alsacienne 23rd Mar 2019 14:57

OK so this is Jet Blast, but I am disappointed by how quickly folk sink to the lowest common denominator when calling out other folk. We really don't need this sort of playground language, regardless of one's nationality, race or place of residence. Strong views and opinions are acceptable, especially if they are expressed in a logical, cohesive and clear fashion. Name-calling is not acceptable, and adds nothing to the discussion - or this thread - except to prove that there are those participating in it who cannot behave in a grown-up and dignified manner, whatever their point of view.

wiggy 23rd Mar 2019 15:52

Anyway....I see the old chestnut of people not accepting the referendum result and democracy is rearing it's head again.

I appreciate many here feel the Remainers should just ..err shut up.. but if anybody is puzzled as to why many associated with the Remain Campaign still feel campaigning is right and justified then maybe they need to think back to what Nigel Farage said prior to the Referendum about what would happen would happen if the Referendum result turned out to be 48%/52%.....

NoelEvans 23rd Mar 2019 16:08


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 10427735)
.. but if anybody is puzzled as to why many associated with the Remain Campaign still feel campaigning is right and justified then maybe they need to think back to what Nigel Farage said prior to the Referendum about what would happen would happen if the Referendum result turned out to be 48%/52%.....

wiggy, you have enlightened me and like a lightening flash I can now see what should have been obvious all along:

Remoaners are like Nigel Farage!!

Thanks for that!

Steepclimb 23rd Mar 2019 17:13


Originally Posted by Hussar 54 (Post 10427619)
All, and I repeat, all my English family members and friends would love to rid themselves of the Irish problem and, especially, the Scots.

Not sure if they are representative of the whole of England, but they're fed up to the back teeth of pouring money into a part of the UK which doesn't want to be a part of the UK and another part of the UK where half the population supported terrorism against UK citizens and 20 years later still can't get along well enough to form an administration.

Quite rightly, NI is a bottomless pit of money for the English taxpayer. They're on a gravy train. No wonder the colonists are so loyal. :rolleyes:

Hussar 54 23rd Mar 2019 17:22


Originally Posted by Steepclimb (Post 10427779)
Quite rightly, NI is a bottomless pit of money for the English taxpayer. They're on a gravy train. No wonder the colonists are so loyal. :rolleyes:


Belfast, Edinburgh, Brussels - they all have their hands in other peoples' pockets....Cardiff - no idea....

Anyway....You shouldn't be posting on here - not being British and all that....


Sprogget 23rd Mar 2019 17:41


Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator (Post 10427662)
Charming indeed.
​​​​
It is said that he who shouts and swears has lost the argument.

I'm afraid, like Hussar before you, you have failed to comprehend what was actually being said. So, for the record, here is Hussar suggesting people enamoured of the EU should leave the UK to live in it.


Originally Posted by Hussar 54 (Post 10427641)

Just think how much pressure would be released away from public services and housing shortages if only half of them followed their dream and invested fully in being a fully paid up European citizen in, say, Bulgaria or Latvia or even Ireland.
.

Now I find that a disgraceful attitude, then again, he's just floated the idea that Northern Ireland are a pack of ungrateful spongers who should be booted out of the UK, so what we are dealing with here is someone off the actual charts of rational discourse, but I digress. What I did was to distil this:


Originally Posted by Hussar 54 (Post 10427641)

Just think how much pressure would be released away from public services and housing shortages if only half of them followed their dream and invested fully in being a fully paid up European citizen in, say, Bulgaria or Latvia or even Ireland.
.


Into its core message, I.e. This:


Originally Posted by Sprogget (Post 10427646)
And that's before we come to the actual nastiness of that view. Don't like it? F**k off then. Charming.

Now, I would have thought it perfectly obvious, nevertheless, right on time, the outrage express rolled into moantown right on time. Luckily for me, after everyone else went & got all uppity about losing arguments & all that, Hussar confirmed he knew exactly what was being said & the intent. Cool, then we know the outrage was all faux, son et lumiere as they say in Hyeres where people go out of their way to wilfully misinterpret words to suit an agenda.

So, soz for the earthy language, but the time comes now & then when an absolute record breaking, off the scale, zealot needs exposing for the grim pedlar of rancour they are & I won't shy away from it. Pitiful in every way.

Hussar 54 23rd Mar 2019 17:46


Originally Posted by Sprogget (Post 10427794)
I'm afraid, like Hussar before you, you have failed to comprehend what was actually being said. So, for the record, here is Hussar suggesting people enamoured of the EU should leave the UK to live in it.



Now I find that a disgraceful attitude, then again, he's just floated the idea that Northern Ireland are a pack of ungrateful spongers who should be booted out of the UK, so what we are dealing with here is someone off the actual charts of rational discourse, but I digress. What I did was to distil this:




Into its core message, I.e. This:



Now, I would have thought it perfectly obvious, nevertheless, right on time, the outrage express rolled into moantown right on time. Luckily for me, after everyone else went & got all uppity about losing arguments & all that, Hussar confirmed he knew exactly what was being said & the intent. Cool, then we know the outrage was all faux, son et lumiere as they say in Hyeres where people go out of their way to wilfully misinterpret words to suit an agenda.

So, soz for the earthy language, but the time comes now & then when an absolute record breaking, off the scale, zealot needs exposing for the grim pedlar of rancour they are & I won't shy away from it. Pitiful in every way.


You reached the bottom of your hole yet ?

And the limit of your personal abuse ?

We#ll let the mods decide.


Sprogget 23rd Mar 2019 17:53

I see even when it's spelt out in capital letters very slowly, you still make the choice to misunderstand. I take it as read from your last sentence, you are so sure of your views on deporting people who don't share your politics (Hmmm, where have we seen that before?) that you're currently mashing the report button. How lovely.

Hussar 54 23rd Mar 2019 18:02


Originally Posted by Sprogget (Post 10427803)
I see even when it's spelt out in capital letters very slowly, you still make the choice to misunderstand. I take it as read from your last sentence, you are so sure of your views on deporting people who don't share your politics (Hmmm, where have we seen that before?) that you're currently mashing the report button. How lovely.



Where did I mention deported ??

But don't bother to reply - I'm not here, I've F**cked Off as you told me to.




Pontius Navigator 23rd Mar 2019 18:41

Sprigget, I was referring not to what either you or Hussar said but your uncouth comments. You clearly did not understand what I meant. Debate on fact and opinion not abuse.

Harley Quinn 23rd Mar 2019 18:59

Just idle curiosity on my part, but does anyone else think that Sproggett and Parapunter are one and the same?

If so, why the need to post under a different name?

MFC_Fly 23rd Mar 2019 19:15


Originally Posted by Harley Quinn (Post 10427842)
Just idle curiosity on my part, but does anyone else think that Sproggett and Parapunter are one and the same?

If so, why the need to post under a different name?

Mmmm, interesting thought. Strange how Parapunter has been MIA for a couple of days (last posted 21 March pm), just as Sproggett suddenly reappears (first post in months 22 March am) :ooh:

Edited to add...

After a bit of digging, Parapunter was silent between 15 November last year and 7 January this year. Sproggett, who had been silent since May last year, suddenly became very active on 16 November until, guess when... ohhh, 5 January.

topradio 23rd Mar 2019 20:02

Now I'm not a mathematician but it seems that approximately 35% of the potential electorate voted to remain in the EU, which means that 65% of that same group did not vote to remain in the EU. Seems like a pretty overwhelming majority for leaving to me.

Avionker 23rd Mar 2019 20:40


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10425449)
It's nationalist stupidity like that, that got us into the shit we are in now.

Years of blatant lies from the red top rags, blind nationalism and the Dunning-Kruger effect are to blame for the shit we are in.

Exrigger 23rd Mar 2019 21:19

Found this YouTube video from November 2017:

Then I spotted these, some differing views on the subject:

I am beginning to think the old quotation below is more apt for Brexit not happening, especially when we are getting articles like this, I know it is the Daily Mail but it cannot be total fabrication/fake news, or can it:
http://its no deal or norway gloating eu


They think it is all over, it is now

kkbuk 23rd Mar 2019 21:48


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10427505)
The world has changed and answers to problems are not always military any more. I can't predict how it will happen this time but maybe Britain could help with some kind of 'Marshal Plan' after the 'yellow vests' and Macron's army, German motor manufacturers cheating, Italian budget chaos, Belgian disunity, Hungarian immigration policies, Spanish separatism problems, and the various 'populist' uprisings have brought Europe to its economic knees. However it happens, Britain will be able to help best from the outside, as they did so successfully when they stepped in from the outside to help save Europe from itself in the 18th and 19th Centuries and twice in the 20th Century. I just hope that we manage to avoid military involvement next time, but that (as every time in the past) will depend on the nature of chaos that the Europeans bring on themselves.

Precisely how is an impoverished Britain going to be able to fund a "Marshall Plan"? As for military involvement, have you any comprehension of the size of our armed forces?

Sallyann1234 23rd Mar 2019 22:41


Originally Posted by kkbuk (Post 10427926)
Precisely how is an impoverished Britain going to be able to fund a "Marshall Plan"? As for military involvement, have you any comprehension of the size of our armed forces?

We won't, of course.
Except in the imagination of Brexiteers who still believe they are in the Victorian era when Britain ruled the waves.



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