Sadly, whatever happens now the damage has been done. Whether we leave or stay, the country is going to suffer. Just in different ways.

Cameron's plan to outflank the UKIP faction in his own party failed abysmally and as a direct consequence of his stupidity the country will never be the same. He should hide in shame for the rest of his days.

There was little prospect of a Marxist government three years ago.

Now, the collapse of parliamentary authority, together with the inevitable disruption of a no-deal Brexit, are fertile ground for an extreme authoritarian government to take control.

But you'll have Brexit. Much good may it do you.

It has to be a decisive remain. But that's unlikely.

The irony I believe is that this is not and never was about the EU. It seems like that but no this was always about internal British politics. The North South divide. The relentless anti EU false news and propaganda from the likes of the Boris Johnson and Farage. The Brits were never sold on the advantages of being in the EU. Away from the the home counties all people saw that they were peripheral to the South of England.
It was easy to blame the foreigners. The EU.

With the EU gone who will take the blame?

Is it any wonder that Corbyn and the rest of the Marxists want the EU out of the equation.

The left I have to say see this as a glorious opportunity. The Tories are finished. The middle ground is gone.

May's overture to Corbyn and the Labour Party is a bit like the Czar reaching out to the Bolscheviks. Too little too late.

You think Britain is too strong a democracy to avoid this? Well you haven't been paying to much attention to the divided parliament lately.
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Steepclimb and Mr Mac - to many of us it was about the EU as an institution.

Who said this - The whole basis of the Maastricht treaty is the establishment of a European Central Bank which is staffed by bankers, independent of national Governments and national economic policies, and whose sole policy is the maintenance of price stability. That will undermine any social objective that any Labour Government in the United Kingdom—or any other Government—would wish to carry out. ... The Maastricht treaty does not take us in the direction of the checks and balances contained in the American federal constitution. It takes us in the opposite direction of an unelected legislative body—The European Commission—and, in the case of foreign policy, a policy Commission that will be, in effect, imposing foreign policy on nation states that have fought for their own democratic accountability".
Jeremy Corbyn of course and he also says - "We have a European bureaucracy totally unaccountable to anybody, powers have gone from national parliaments - they haven't gone to the European Parliament, they've gone to the Commission and to some extent the Council of Ministers. These are quite serious matters."
Corbyn also opposed the Lisbon Treaty in 2008 and backed a proposed referendum on British withdrawal from the European Union in 2011. Additionally, he accused the institution of acting "brutally" in the 2015 Greek crisis, accusing the EU of allowing financiers to destroy its economy.
Or even this where he is quite right about politicians ignoring the result of a referendum if it doesn't give the expected answer.
A Left-wing website The Red Roar obtained footage of a 2009 speech which shows Mr Corbyn pouring scorn on the idea of repeating votes on the same issue, which will come as blow to Labour supporters seeking a second EU referendum. In his speech, Mr Corbyn said the Lisbon Treaty made the EU “subservient to the wishes of Nato”
He said: “We are creating here one massive great Frankenstein which will damage all of us in the long run. “What it does is create this military machine, this military Frankenstein, which will be so damaging to all of us.”
In his speech at a meeting organised by the Irish Anti-War Movement., the year after the country rejected the Lisbon Treaty by 53.4 percent to 46.6 percent, Mr Corbyn says he expects officials to ignore the result.He tells the audience: “Don't scrap your posters, don't recycle them, because you're going to need them for a third referendum. Because I've got a feeling they're going to keep on voting until they get the answer they want.”.
The remarks will stun Labour Remainers pushing for a “People's Vote” to overturn the result of the 2016 referendum.
Ireland was the only EU nation to hold a referendum on the terms of the Lisbon Treaty which proposed the creation of the first president of Europe and a European foreign minister. A second referendum did take place and was eventually won by the pro-EU campaign which negotiated guarantees on Irish sovereignty after the defeat in the first vote.

Perhaps he is like Dianne Abbott and her views on the IRA and he has changed his hairstyle since then.

Headstone, a lot of what you say may or not be true but I take exception to the notion of the EU as a giant conspiracy. Too many countries involved and too many idealists for that to be true.
The EU is flawed we all know that. Quite often it was the British who pricked the EU balloon. By leaving the needle is blunted.

The EU is there because Europe regularly convulsed itself with war over the centuries. We all know it. It's supposed to be the antidote to this conflict the resolution of base nationism.

Now the British, of all people have resorted to nationalism. Who'd have thought?

Anti EU nationalism is now a growing phenomenon encouraged by the Brits.

Nationalism equals war. The very thing the EU wants to prevent from ever happening again.

Brexit maybe be self indulgent navel gazing but it has consequences beyond local issues. Which is ironic considering the fact that many Brexiteers see Britain as important in the scheme of things.

But never as a negative factor.

There is no good from Brexit.

Yup but also it appears from reading that half are trailers where no driver required and picked up the other end, bearing in mind a tractor unit costs up to €200k plus driver then seems many are taking this option at the moment.

Think you will find middle ground is still there, only difference is that the extremist Right and Left wing are getting sidelined. The birth of a new centre party could take shape. UK is a centre left country but electoral system is not set up for it. In many areas there is zero point voting because they are such strong Tory / Labour areas that it will never change under present system

A new centre party has a chance to change that, introducing PR or a run off system such that ANY MP who has failed to get 50.01% must have a run off against second place candidate.

In 2017 there were 477 MPs elected with greater than 50% of the vote. 243 Tory, 222 Labour, others 12. Now having 173 odd facing a run off changes things very quickly. But reality would be in a future election every vote counts so focus will be on turnover and Extreme Tory / Labour / Other who have to do a rerun find themselves needing to appeal to everybody or no seat.

In 2017 Torys had 74 seats they won on <50% of Vote and 49 Seats they were in second place of which Labour were in 2nd place in 52 of the 74, Labour had 40 seats won on <50% of the vote and 79 seats in second place of which Torys were 2nd place in 32 of the 40. SNP had 35 seats <50% of teh vote and 22 seats in second place and LD has 11 and 13.

In all likelihood seats would go all over the place which kills extremists of all sides and a consenous Govt has to occur.

Gives a whole new meaning to those well known phrases " free and full movement of controls " and " I have control ".....along with Treeza in the RH seat. ...plus, it's a radial, so we shudder to think what the mixture settings would be.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-jeremy-corbyn

At the moment, the UK is pretty much held hostage and thus effectively run by the DUP, so it would be just one extreme replaced by another. Fair game. That's democracy,

The DUP make the Branch Dividian Sect in Waco all those years ago appear reasonable.

“Won’t you join our Common Market?” said the spider to the fly,

“It really is a winner and the cost is not too high.

I know De Gaulle said ‘Non’, but he hadn’t got a clue,

We want you in, my friends and I, for we have plans for you.

You’ll have to pay a little more than we do, just for now,

As Herr Kohl said, and I agree, ‘We need a new milch cow’,

It’s just a Continental term, believe me, mon ami,

Like ‘Vive la France’ or ‘Mad Anglais’ or even ‘E.E.C’.

As to the rules, don’t worry friend, there’s really but a few

You’ll find that we ignore them — but they all apply to you.

Give and share between us, that’s what it’s all about.

You do all the giving, and we all share it out.

It’s very British, is it not, to help a friend in need?

You’ve done it twice in two World Wars, a fact we must concede,

So climb aboard the Market Train, don’t sit there on the side,

Your Continental cousins want to take you for a ride.”

You got that right Blossy, our surrender monkey shower in power just fail to see beyond the rim of the trough their snouts are gorging in

Interesting, by the way, that the two Swedish parties that had a "Swexit" in their manifesto have now somewhat hastily removed it after watching the Brexit drama and the UK steering at full speed towards the iceberg. And the Swedish population's - that voted in favour of an EU membership with a very small majority back in the day - approval of the EU is at an all-time high.

Now if there is one good thing about Brexit it is apparently that the population of other member states have learned to appreciate what they have got by watching the British falling onto Brexit sword.

Are we there yet, Dad?

To Quote Bruns

What a parcel of rogues for a nation

Personally, I'm looking forward to reading ( not buying however ! ) Dave's Big Book about Dave, My Time in Office ( Chap1. How I screwed up the UK for decades to come).....publication of this fantastic autobiography seems to be inexplicably delayed.....which is another apt metaphor really.

Old story of a strike outside a retailers and persuading people not to go it. Clearly working with a lot of customers until one guy got into a deep discussion with one Union member. He then went into the store and union member wished him well. Puzzled the other strikers asked person concerned and his retort "Gentleman is not going into there to buy anything, he is going in there to shoplift".

Maybe do it with Call Me Dave's book and then return it :E

I had a reply here but I deleted it because ultimately its specious. In any case nothing I say will change anything my opinion is nil. None of us here can change anything.
I'm moving on.

Brexit Smexit.

The UK is about to dissolve, history is in the making.

Odd that it started as a way of preserving Britishness.

Unintended consequences