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CargoMatatu 4th Apr 2019 09:38


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10438364)
I can understand that you are feeling sore after your blaming of the EU for the UK government's disastrous behaviour was torn to shreds. But please offer a better defence.

The most likely outcome then would be Corbyn's Marxist government with policies very likely those of the benighted Venezuela.


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How ironic, considering the habit of Brexiteers to refer to the EU as the "EUSSR". Would we then have to start referring to the UK as "Stalinist Britain"? :eek:

Steepclimb 4th Apr 2019 09:47


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10438344)
I don't care who 'invented' it. I am only interested in the lack common sense in claiming that it is not negotiable, which is the EU's position. That 'last resort' to avoid a hard border after the end of next year, through this inflexibility, is now the single point that is most like to cause a hard border by the end of next week. If one clear aspect, the 'Irish backstop' is almost certain to cause a hard border by the end of next week when the only purpose of retaining it is to avoid the possibility of hard border after the end of next year and removing that single aspect, the 'Irish backstop', would almost certainly remove that threat of a hard border after the end of next week and it is 'not negotiable', then I just don't see common sense being used.

Let's be clear the backstop, a British government idea was not is not ever intended to lock the UK into the customs union for 50 years. It is intended to prevent a hard border temporarily if talks dragged on. That's it no more no less. Temporary.

Given the utter shambles that passes for parliamentary democracy at the moment. Would you trust them to negotiate a good deal in the time allocated?

The backstop is a damocles sword hanging over the negotiations. It's needed.

There will be no hard Brexit. That's dead. But if it did happen there would immediately a desperate series of agreements and deals in an attempt to stave off the disastrous effects and one of them will be 'no hard border'.
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racedo 4th Apr 2019 10:45


Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator (Post 10438273)
I made the point when Ken Clarke was MOT that fuel duty was a better way of charging for usage rather than a fixed rate tax. That idea was adopted and vehicle tax was frozen for some years. However the law of unforeseen consequences kicked in an continental trucks had larger fuel tanks fitted to take advantage of cross border fuel price differentials.

I don't know the price differentials now but if we are more expensive there would be little tax lost.

From the Irish pov, they will have to balance the shipping fuel against vehicle fuel.

They won't as it is is shipping company who is paying for fuel and 600 units on a ferry use a lot less fuel than 600 on road plus 2 ferry sailings.

Direct Ferry cost is cheaper but its a 2 day trip v 1 1/2 days using land bridge but for an operator you burn zero fuel plus seems to be trailer units are very popular rather than with tractor units.

G-CPTN 4th Apr 2019 11:09


Originally Posted by racedo (Post 10438450)
its a 2 day trip v 1 1/2 days using land bridge but for an operator you burn zero fuel .

Plus (I presume), drivers save their driving hours for use on land driving.

pax britanica 4th Apr 2019 11:28

So M some quit MPs are now saying a second referendum would be divisive. Have they been struck blind and deaf these last few months. The UK is more divided than at any time since the civil war so I find it hard to imagine anything was more divisive than the first referendum.

You now also have the fixation on 'leaving the EU' as the goal as opposed to doing the right thing for the country (not party) . Many of these MPs appear to have no knowledge whatsoever of international trade and politics and are just showing their bling ignorance . If Gov Uk was a corporation it would have gone bust over the last three months , what it is like for people running businesses I cannot imagine . Just have a second referendum and people will shut up one way or the other and the idea of a no deal is so daft and dangerous that those promoting it should be tried for treason (under the arson in HM's dockyards bit, ie causing deliberate harm to their country

Hyperdark 4th Apr 2019 11:53


Just have a second referendum and people will shut up one way or the other
You must be on another Planet, Nice there is it?

Blacksheep 4th Apr 2019 12:21

This morning the BBC Breakfast show was showing us a food company "stocking up" in preparation for a Hard Brexit. They had tonnes of Brazil Nuts and hundreds of boxes of stuff from China. Since when were Brazil and China in the EU?

Pontius Navigator 4th Apr 2019 12:39

Maybe transhipped from Nederland?

Headstone 4th Apr 2019 13:13

So the vote to delay was passed by one vote. The lying convicted criminal MP for Peterbrough recently let out of jail on licence voted for it whist wearing her electronic tag.
Do these people have no shame?

Alsacienne 4th Apr 2019 13:26

At least they can vote. Some of us - a large number of us - who have been out of the UK for more than 15 years could not ... even if we contribute to Class 3 Pensions, income tax, purchasing of UK goods ... and don't qualify for a change of nationality ....

For goodness sake, VOTE, get a meaningful result and let some of us get on with our ordinary lives.

dc9-32 4th Apr 2019 13:30

I'm packing up and moving to France. Embarrassed to say I'm British.

Sallyann1234 4th Apr 2019 14:25


Originally Posted by Blacksheep (Post 10438549)
This morning the BBC Breakfast show was showing us a food company "stocking up" in preparation for a Hard Brexit. They had tonnes of Brazil Nuts and hundreds of boxes of stuff from China. Since when were Brazil and China in the EU?

If the docks are blocked by cross-channel trade, other ships may be affected too. They are just following HMG advice, for what it is worth.

G-CPTN 4th Apr 2019 16:21


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10438681)
They are just following HMG advice, for what it is worth.

Have they got the booze organised for the party in the brewery?

Headstone 4th Apr 2019 16:28

Alsacienne - We had a vote and it should have been respected but those that are much more intelligent, mouthier, noisier, the BBC, nice Mr Tony B Liar and his mate Mandelson and so on didn't like the result. Here's an idea - if there is another vote and it comes out as remain can we have best of 3? They will certainly will find another reason to vote again if the result is to Leave.

Exrigger 4th Apr 2019 16:46


Originally Posted by Headstone (Post 10438842)
Alsacienne - We had a vote and it should have been respected but those that are much more intelligent, mouthier, noisier, the BBC, nice Mr Tony B Liar and his mate Mandelson and so on didn't like the result. Here's an idea - if there is another vote and it comes out as remain can we have best of 3? They will certainly will find another reason to vote again if the result is to Leave.

I think you know the answer to that, a vote in Westminster won by 1 vote is good to go for the remain side, so if they actually did win another referendum, even by a small majority, it would suddenly be a democratic decision and the clever people have spoken and there is nothing more to be debated, so there. :E

paulc 4th Apr 2019 17:31

Very true Exrigger. To paraphrase Animal Farm "all votes are equal its just that some are more equal than others"
a majority of 1 means we remain yet a leave majority of over 1.6 million means the same.

virginblue 4th Apr 2019 18:30

If you start doing the maths, it would be interesting to know what percentage of the population the 315 and what percentage the 314 votes represent. After all, we are talking about a representative democracy.

Steepclimb 4th Apr 2019 19:04

You know the more I see this the more I think a second referendum is vital. Knowing what you know now do you still want to leave?

No I don't believe that more democracy is anti democratic.

The people who fear a second vote fear a change of mind.

However I fear that the only result that might conclude this tearing apart of Britain is another leave vote. This time decisive without doubt. If Brexiteers truly believed the people know what they want then they should have no fear of a second referendum.

A remain vote will continue the argument. Leaving with a deal that doesn't have a consensus will also be divisive.

​​​​​​Whatever happens the old British conceits about their 'democracy' is falling apart.



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Pontius Navigator 4th Apr 2019 19:19


Originally Posted by Steepclimb (Post 10438993)
However I fear that the only result that might conclude this tearing apart of Britain is another leave vote. This time decisive without doubt.

Agree.


A remain vote will continue the argument.
Unless there is a decisive majority.

In either case 17.4m leave and much fewer than 16.1m remain or many more than 16.1m leave with fewer leavers could be decisive. However I suggest a similar majority, either way, with a much lower turnout would solve nothing.

​​​​​​Whatever happens the old British conceits about their 'democracy' is falling apart.



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G0ULI 4th Apr 2019 19:44

Every few years we have a General Election. The results are announced and the new government assumes power. There is no three year period arguing the validity of the result despite some changes of government doing more damage to the UK economy than a succession of Brexits.

Enact the result of the referendum as promised. Once we have left the EU, then negotiations can start on trade deals, in accordance with EU regulations. Who knows, perhaps the trade deals will be as easy and trouble free as suggested, probably not though.

The point is, nothing about Brexit can possibly be more potentially damaging to the UK economy than the election of a Marxist biased government.


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