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strake 21st Mar 2019 15:50


And maybe this time let ALL UK citizens (over 18) vote, including those who live abroad!
Maybe I've misunderstood but I am resident in France (and pay taxes in UK as well) and I voted in the referendum much as I do in local and general elections by using a postal vote.

Alsacienne 21st Mar 2019 15:54

Depends how long you've been out of the UK. After 15 years, you're out, with no strikes.

G0ULI 21st Mar 2019 15:56


Originally Posted by gevans35 (Post 10425778)
There is a UK Government and Parliament petition to "Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU" which is gaining some traction.

Unfortunately for some, the opposing "Leave the EU immediately" petition achieved 17.4 million verified votes some time ago. One week to go until we leave.

Bob Viking 21st Mar 2019 16:18

MFC
 
Thats your reason, not mine. Our situations are very different. I do not pay Canadian taxes and never have.

BV

ThorMos 21st Mar 2019 16:20


Originally Posted by Hussar 54 (Post 10425755)
No taxation without representation and no representation without taxation.

To me makes sense and how it should be.

Not dependent on citizenship, residency, place of work, etc, but where you and to whom you pay your taxes because you should be able to have a say in how your taxes are spent and no part of the decision making process in a country where you don't pay tax.

Hm, as you can see in this thread, not all paying taxes have been allowe to vote.
And, using your logic, how about british people living in the UK and not paying taxes, for whatever reason, should they be allowed to vote?
What if somebody pays twice or a thousand times more tax than you, should his vote be worth twice or a thousand times your vote?

One man, one vote...

I am just curious, in germany this is part of our constitution, that if have german citizenship, you are allowed to vote (over 18, or whatever). And i think that it is a fair and proper way to do this...

wiggy 21st Mar 2019 16:22


Originally Posted by strake (Post 10425827)
Maybe I've misunderstood but I am resident in France (and pay taxes in UK as well) and I voted in the referendum much as I do in local and general elections by using a postal vote.

Alsacienne is correct.

I'm also in France, I pay UK income Tax and Full NI.....just today I just got my latest notification of Tax Code from HMRC, but because I have now been non resident in the UK for >15 years I'm now disenfrancised.

Got a vote (just) in the referendum in '16..no vote in the following GE..

Headstone 21st Mar 2019 18:12

Of course Brexiteers are stupid.
They voted in a referendum where the question was - do you want to leave the EU or remain. No ifs and and buts or only if we get what we consider a good deal, just do you want to leave or remain.
ALL major political parties said they would respect the result. Then due to their arrogance and their stupidity in not getting the Remain message over a majority of voters voted to leave but we are not going to as of course the "Intelligentsia" know much more than the common stupid brexiteer. It makes me wonder why we even bother to have universal suffrage. Surely the country would be better off if only intelligent people such as Remoaners and Gruniad readers can vote. These people also know how famous scientists such as Newton and Rutherford would vote as although these scientists were not born there they went to uni in Cambridge so they would have voted remain! Would love to know the reasoning behind that or are intelligent people able to converse with the dead? I have never read anything anywhere about Newton's political leanings or even if he was able to vote - I'm probably not intelligent enough.
Breaking News -an online petition has over a million votes - WOW - well that must completely over ride the 17 million stupid leave votes.
Brexiteers are stupid because they thought we lived in a democracy where the government did as the people wished and especially as they promised to do this. The politicians voted overwhelmingly to invoke article 50 which meant we would leave the EU, again no ifs, ands or buts however being politicians they lied. It appears we live in a society where democracy only exists if people vote they way the intelligentsia say they should.

Hussar 54 21st Mar 2019 18:28


Originally Posted by Headstone (Post 10425970)
Of course Brexiteers are stupid.
They voted in a referendum where the question was - do you want to leave the EU or remain. No ifs and and buts or only if we get what we consider a good deal, just do you want to leave or remain.
ALL major political parties said they would respect the result. Then due to their arrogance and their stupidity in not getting the Remain message over a majority of voters voted to leave but we are not going to as of course the "Intelligentsia" know much more than the common stupid brexiteer. It makes me wonder why we even bother to have universal suffrage. Surely the country would be better off if only intelligent people such as Remoaners and Gruniad readers can vote. These people also know how famous scientists such as Newton and Rutherford would vote as although these scientists were not born there they went to uni in Cambridge so they would have voted remain! Would love to know the reasoning behind that or are intelligent people able to converse with the dead? I have never read anything anywhere about Newton's political leanings or even if he was able to vote - I'm probably not intelligent enough.
Breaking News -an online petition has over a million votes - WOW - well that must completely over ride the 17 million stupid leave votes.
Brexiteers are stupid because they thought we lived in a democracy where the government did as the people wished and especially as they promised to do this. The politicians voted overwhelmingly to invoke article 50 which meant we would leave the EU, again no ifs, ands or buts however being politicians they lied. It appears we live in a society where democracy only exists if people vote they way the intelligentsia say they should.


I think the use of the word ' intelligentsia ' is actually a huge exaggeration....Self-important might be more accurate....


Big_D 21st Mar 2019 19:35

You are such a lovely person to talk to!

denachtenmai 22nd Mar 2019 08:24


You are such a lovely person to talk to!
????????????????????????????????????????????????

Krystal n chips 22nd Mar 2019 08:30

Personally, the shambles reminds me of one of those mobile phone or utility contracts where, when you try to leave early, the providers produce a huge bill ( details included in the small print thoughtfully provided, but which few actually bother to read....until it's too late. )

old,not bold 22nd Mar 2019 13:28

And now we have a bunch of morons calling themselves the "Brexit Direct Action group" trying to organise lorry drivers to drive very slowly in large groups on UK motorways so as to f**k up everyone else.

This is supposed to achieve some unknown purpose. Neither the Group nor the people they are trying to get to join them have a very clear idea about what the purpose is, and/or how f*****g up everyone else is actually going to achieve it.

I have no wish at all to be in the same gang as these cretins, so whatever they want is what I'm against. I only wish I knew what this is.

Edit;

Ahah, I have just seen that the plan and purpose of the protest is to "bring the country to its knees". Bit after the event, IMHO. Brexiteers have achieved that conclusively already. The UK is now on its knees in every sense, thanks to their antics. This protest can't make the UK sink any further than it is already. Why are they doing it?

Hussar 54 22nd Mar 2019 13:50

Works every time here....

This one more recently

https://www.thelocal.fr/20170925/fra...s-stage-strike

And this one was the most effective of all

https://www.france24.com/en/20131116...protest-ecotax

Pontius Navigator 22nd Mar 2019 13:52


trying to organise lorry drivers to drive very slowly in large groups on UK motorways so as to f**k up everyone else.
I thought they were doing that already.

And would it be Lithuanian and Romanian truckers, or Spanish ones aiming to get their strawberries to market late?

Alsacienne 22nd Mar 2019 15:03

Opération Escargot .... well-known in France. Latest reports suggest that Brexit and a proposed extension is now firmly back in the hands of the UK Parliament. We don't need any more clowns getting in on the act.

old,not bold 22nd Mar 2019 16:14


Brexiteers are stupid because they thought we lived in a democracy where the government did as the people wished and especially as they promised to do this.
Oh dear, (heavy sigh, again) it was 37% of eligible voters who actually voted to leave. I do realise that they won the day due to the rules of the game, but it does irk me when people talk about those 37% as "the British people". It's a demographic that Mrs May on the face of it always forgets. Had she and that gang of fools around her been much more inclusive, from the day the result was known, things would have gone rather better. As it is she's trying to appease the rabid far right, whom she seems to mis-identify as "the British People", while getting everyone else fed up with the whole stupid farce set in motion by David effin Cameron..

LowNSlow 22nd Mar 2019 16:51

The Leave vote was indeed 37% of the overall voting population but the fact remains it was still 51.9% of the people who actually cared enough to vote!

Exrigger 22nd Mar 2019 18:13

Found this site, dated 28th July 2016, interesting to see what was said back then and what has happened since:

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/what-if-everyo...eu-referendum/


While Brexit likely does not reflect the sentiment of the entire electorate the result of the referendum reflects how democracy works. This is a longstanding constitutional principle and it was honoured on June 23rd. If you don’t participate, your voice is not heard.This discussion of what ‘might have been’ has led some disappointed Remainers (and political movements) to demand a second EU referendum.

Some MPs have called for Parliament to exert its constitutional power and reject the result entirely. Still others have suggested that Prime Minister May and her Government should ‘slow walk’ exit negotiations with the EU, by failing to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty and so subvert the Brexit decision with bureaucratic inertia. The success of these efforts remains to be seen and their democratic bona fides are sure to be challenged.


Headstone 22nd Mar 2019 20:45

37% Vote
 
It really is so predictable - Only 37% of the eligible voters voted to leave. I can guarantee with absolute certainty if the numbers had been reversed not one person on Remain side would have sad "Excuse me old chap that is so close and as we only got 37% it doesn't really seem fair to me and we ought to rerun it". No Remain would have been dancing in the streets.

As to the percentage to win the vote, then what should it have been? Over 50% of the vote on the day or over 50% of eligible voters? Will we have that test in any future referendum? Maggie pulled a similar fast one on the Scots in a referendum so very surprised the Cameron Clown didn't do something similar or was it just arrogance on his part that the proles would toe the party line? However when asked the question in 1975 the percentage that voted to remain in the EEC - It was just 43% of eligible voters that said they wanted to remain in the EEC. Should that have been enough to pass the test? It was only a 66% turn out but that did not concern the government and we remained as members of the EEC.

By the way does the EEC ring a bell? The great lie we were fed by Heath/Wilson et al. Talk about Brexiteers being sold a Unicorn what a scam and lie we were fed than. I can remember Grocer Ted on the TV in the initial vote in 1973 and Wilson puffing on his pipe in 1975 assuring this was not a step towards a political union and we were just entering a trading partnership with our very good friends in Europe.

Back to the point - Do we live in North Korea/ the Soviet Union/ Nazi Germany? Do we have mob rule when the shoutiest lot led by a bunch of lying politicians win (one MP even had an electronic tag on when she voted last week as wearing it was a condition of her release from jail) or do we live in a country where people vote for something and politicians actually carry out the wishes of the people - whether or not they are "morons" as so eloquently described above?

old,not bold 22nd Mar 2019 21:29

Headstone, yes, yes, we all know that the rules of the referendum meant that a simple majority of those who voted won the day.

But the unavoidable fact is that 63% of eligible voters did not vote to leave, while 37% did. It's just a factual demographic, not a debating point about how fair it all was. Or indeed about how stupid the referendum was in the first place.

That demographic means that spouting on about "the will of the British People" is just nonsense. It was not the will of the British people to leave, any more than it was the will of the British people to remain. It was the will of 37% of eligible voters to leave, and that's it.

For what it's worth, I very much doubt that a majority of those who voted "Leave" wanted a No Deal exit, once they understood, as the rest of us have come to understand, what a catastrophe that would be for the UK.

By the way, if you want to join the petition to revoke Article 50 (3,759,530 signatures and counting) here's the link

VP959 22nd Mar 2019 21:40


Originally Posted by old,not bold (Post 10427137)
Headstone, yes, yes, we all know that the rules of the referendum meant that a simple majority of those who voted won the day.

But the unavoidable fact is that 63% of eligible voters did not vote to leave, while 37% did. It's just a factual demographic, not a debating point about how fair it all was. Or indeed about how stupid the referendum was in the first place.

That demographic means that spouting on about "the will of the British People" is just nonsense. It was not the will of the British people to leave, any more than it was the will of the British people to remain. It was the will of 37% of eligible voters to leave, and that's it.

For what it's worth, I very much doubt that a majority of those who voted "Leave" wanted a No Deal exit, once they understood, as the rest of us have come to understand, what a catastrophe that would be for the UK.

The reality was that, for whatever reason, about 28% of the electorate chose not to vote, or couldn't be arsed (we don't know which), about 35% voted to remain and about 37% voted to leave.

It's not reasonable to assume that the ~28% that didn't vote hold any particular view; the most rational thing to do is to assume that they were either genuinely undecided, or couldn't care less, which amounts to the same thing, in terms of the outcome. Perhaps we should choose to split the non-voters 50/50 and present the results as 51% leave, 49% remain, as that seems to fall into line with what actually happened. Assuming that the 28% of non-voters would have all voted to remain, or all voted to leave, seems a hell of a stretch either way.

When I voted I didn't want a "no deal" exit, but frankly I've been of the view that it would be far and away the better option over the past few weeks, given the way our government have been squabbling like children.

Fareastdriver 22nd Mar 2019 21:55


I very much doubt that a majority of those who voted "Leave" wanted a No Deal exit,
Who mentioned a 'Deal' during the Referendum?

Headstone 22nd Mar 2019 22:42

Why all the noise now about percentages?
No one ever gave a toss when Tony B. Liar got an overwhelming majority in the HoC despite, at a guess, only around 30% of total eligible people voting for him. In fact around half a million less votes than Major achieved in 1992 when he had the tiniest of majorities. It is the way our system works so feel free to find a better way. We had a vote on proportional representation which would probably have meant a dramatic change with endless and probably ever changing coalitions much like the DUP propping up May, but that was rejected. No one moaned about numbers for or against or percentages on that issue.
Using the moans about percentages above we should not have even remained the EEC in the 1975 vote if you add up the ones who didn't vote and those who voted against. Approx 17 million for remain in the EEC, 8 million against and 15 million couldn't be bothered to express an opinion.
The fact is THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO COULD BE BOTHERED TO VOTE DECIDE TO VOTE LEAVE.
There I have committed the cardinal sin of capitals in emails/posts but how many times do remainers want it spelt out?

And of course as one person has just pointed out - There was no option on what kind if deal you wanted if you voted to leave. Any referendum has to be a binary choice. Give 3 choices and you will never break the 50% level - which of course LEAVE DID. (Aren't I a cheeky scamp I put things in capitals again and even typed it very slowly for the hard of understanding.)

Headstone 22nd Mar 2019 22:59

Petition
 
I wasn't going to bother but here is something on this petition just for Old, not Bold.
The BBC nailed it's colours to the mast by saying it is a wonderful thing and their tame experts say we can discount "Bots" making lots of votes so it is a genuine reflection of the people. Utter, utter nonsense. As genuine as voting in some banana republic. How many email addresses do PPruners have? Well for me there is work of course, personal one at home, my wife used our personal one for her gym membership so I have to have another GMAIL one for my gym membership, I am sec of a local club and have an email address there. So that is 4 valid ones plus my email provider has offered my 5 more email addresses. So that's 9 votes straight off before I even sign up for any other service. These votes are not checked against a register so no one has any idea how many times someone votes
Of course no PPruner would stoop that low but how many other people are. It is as valid as that infamous election for the mayor of Tower Hamlets.

ricardian 22nd Mar 2019 23:45

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....2d168fd56b.jpg

Barksdale Boy 23rd Mar 2019 01:19

Ricardian

You've brightened up a grey morning here in HK!

On eyre 23rd Mar 2019 02:29

The way you lot are going in the mother country you are likely to lose WWIII without really trying ��

Bob Viking 23rd Mar 2019 04:49

Non Voters
 
We will never know how the 28% that didn’t vote in the referendum truly felt. However, I personally think there is a good chance that a large proportion of them may have thought about voting leave but were so sure the vote wouldn’t get through that they didn’t bother.

The trouble is none of us can assume how they might have voted and use it as evidence either way.

BV

old,not bold 23rd Mar 2019 09:34

That's odd; I personally think there is a good chance that a large proportion of them may have thought about voting remain but were so sure the remain vote would get through that they didn’t bother.

People, eh?

At the risk of repetition, my point is that only 37% voted to leave. A fractionally smaller number voted to remain, and the rest couldn't give a toss, or thought that the outcome they wanted was secure without their vote, so didn't bother.

A "democratic" decision to leave, maybe. The "Will Of The British People", never. If May had decided to take account of the views of majority who did not vote Remain while formulating an Exit deal, and thereby achieve national unity before going near the EU, would would be leaving on 29th March with a good deal and a united nation.

She did not do that, choosing instead to pander to the mob as represented by Johnson, Gove et al. Now, on March 23rd, after having to beg the EU for more time to sort out what we want to do, hints are being dropped that she might talk to people other than the far right so as to work out a deal that the House of Commons can accept.

By the way.... someone asked "Who mentioned a 'Deal during the Referendum?" The Leave campaign did. They said that the EU would fall over themselves to do a fantastic deal to keep the UK as a market for the EU. You remember, "they need us more than we need them", all that crap. Those who said, politely, "actually they don't, if you look at the figures" were immediately shouted down as "scaremongers". Funny old world, isn't it. I see that one outcome of the present farce might be that Jacob Rees-Mogg might become Prime Minister. If we have sunk so low in our politics and self-esteem to do that we will never recover.

NoelEvans 23rd Mar 2019 09:52


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10425449)
It's nationalist stupidity like that, that got us into the shit we are in now.

It's national stupidity in Europe that got them into the position where Britain needed to help liberate them. And many are concerned about Europe returning to that 'national stupidity'. It could be argued that it is best for Britain to be on the outside, as it was in the past, if Britain is to be able to help to save Europe from itself, as Britain has done so often in the past from that position 'outside' Europe. The 'new Napoleon' bringing in troops against his own people should be one of the many warning bells about how things are going wrong 'across there'.

Sallyann1234 23rd Mar 2019 10:03


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10427470)
It's national stupidity in Europe that got them into the position where Britain needed to help liberate them. And many are concerned about Europe returning to that 'national stupidity'. It could be argued that it is best for Britain to be on the outside, as it was in the past, if Britain is to be able to help to save Europe from itself, as Britain has done so often in the past from that position 'outside' Europe. The 'new Napoleon' bringing in troops against his own people should be one of the many warning bells about how things are going wrong 'across there'.

How about that for Project Frighten!

How do you think an impoverished Disunited Kingdom is going to protect Europe from itself - send HMS Queen Elizabeth up the Rhine?

​​​We renounced any significant influence in Europe in May 2016.

ThorMos 23rd Mar 2019 10:04


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10427470)
It's national stupidity in Europe that got them into the position where Britain needed to help liberate them. And many are concerned about Europe returning to that 'national stupidity'. It could be argued that it is best for Britain to be on the outside, as it was in the past, if Britain is to be able to help to save Europe from itself, as Britain has done so often in the past from that position 'outside' Europe. The 'new Napoleon' bringing in troops against his own people should be one of the many warning bells about how things are going wrong 'across there'.

oh yeah, the wars, again... Hasn't been mentioned for at least three posts...

NoelEvans 23rd Mar 2019 10:09

Stop putting any effort into thinking about what the people who didn't bother to vote thought. They didn't bother then so we shouldn't bother about them now.

But a larger percentage of the electorate did bother to vote than the percentage that bothered to vote in elections for the past six governments in the past quarter century. So please spend a bit more time respecting what the voters who bothered to vote voted for.

I won't go into the statistics as Headstone has already done so so well.

NoelEvans 23rd Mar 2019 10:24


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10427484)
How about that for Project Frighten!

How do you think an impoverished Disunited Kingdom is going to protect Europe from itself - send HMS Queen Elizabeth up the Rhine?

​​​We renounced any significant influence in Europe in May 2016.

The world has changed and answers to problems are not always military any more. I can't predict how it will happen this time but maybe Britain could help with some kind of 'Marshal Plan' after the 'yellow vests' and Macron's army, German motor manufacturers cheating, Italian budget chaos, Belgian disunity, Hungarian immigration policies, Spanish separatism problems, and the various 'populist' uprisings have brought Europe to its economic knees. However it happens, Britain will be able to help best from the outside, as they did so successfully when they stepped in from the outside to help save Europe from itself in the 18th and 19th Centuries and twice in the 20th Century. I just hope that we manage to avoid military involvement next time, but that (as every time in the past) will depend on the nature of chaos that the Europeans bring on themselves.

Sprogget 23rd Mar 2019 10:24

Classic of the genre. Write a load of sepia tinted flapdoodle, invoking the war, dopey foreigners, rule Britannia etc. Rightly get pelters for being stupid beyond reason, retort with words to the effect that we won, get over it. Brexit - don't like our arguments? Don't worry, we've got plenty more round the back.

Sallyann1234 23rd Mar 2019 10:25


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10427490)
So please spend a bit more time respecting what the voters who bothered to vote voted for.

You mean the easiest trade deal ever?
£350million that we would rather spend on the NHS?
Yes, a lot of people voted for that. Didn't get it though.

It's slightly amusing to hear the rising note of panic in the voices of those who fear their lies have been exposed and there might be a minuscule chance of victory being snatched from their grasp. Keep it up folks!

Exrigger 23rd Mar 2019 10:30

It is interesting to note that there is a feeling amongst some remain voters on others sites, that Westminster is not taking seriously the petition numbers or those going on the march today in London, but those same people are more than happy for at least 17.2 million not to be taken seriously. :E

NoelEvans 23rd Mar 2019 10:33


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10427510)
You mean the easiest trade deal ever?
£350million that we would rather spend on the NHS?
Yes, a lot of people voted for that. Didn't get it though.

It's slightly amusing to hear the rising note of panic in the voices of those who fear their lies have been exposed and there might be a minuscule chance of victory being snatched from their grasp. Keep it up folks

Let's not get into a 'comparing lies' spat. The Remoaners have too many to list easily (just for a start, remember the 800,000 job losses and the immediate need for an Emergency Budget?). And the Remoaners just stick to that '£360m on the NHS' etc., when we haven't even left the EU yet! So any imbalance of 'lies' tips solidly to the Remoaners side. I see panic from the Remoaners. Keep it up, it's "entertaining"!

Sallyann1234 23rd Mar 2019 10:33


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10427505)
The world has changed and answers to problems are not always military any more. I can't predict how it will happen this time but maybe Britain could help with some kind of 'Marshal Plan' after the 'yellow vests' and Macron's army, German motor manufacturers cheating, Italian budget chaos, Belgian disunity, Hungarian immigration policies, Spanish separatism problems, and the various 'populist' uprisings have brought Europe to its economic knees. However it happens, Britain will be able to help best from the outside, as they did so successfully when they stepped in from the outside to help save Europe from itself in the 18th and 19th Centuries and twice in the 20th Century. I just hope that we manage to avoid military involvement next time, but that (as every time in the past) will depend on the nature of chaos that the Europeans bring on themselves.

Laughable. Just plain laughable.
I'm copying it just in case you feel ashamed and decide to delete it.

NoelEvans 23rd Mar 2019 10:40

I am not at all ashamed of it, especially:

I can't predict how it will happen this time ... I just hope that we manage to avoid military involvement next time...
I am glad that you have 'saved' it to highlight it. It can be a 'quick reference' for when any of those concerns of mine become far more serious. When your ridicule of it will become laughable.


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