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SMT Member 20th Oct 2019 12:38


Originally Posted by IcePack (Post 10599064)
Passenger Brit. I for one just happen to disagree with you as do plenty of others. But I do wonder why Remainers & Brexiteers do not set out their stalls indicating why it is good to remain or why it is good to leave. As for Labour wanting to join a customs union meaning we remain within the EU but with NO voting rights baffles me completely.

I would imagine the exact opposite of what is described by PB, to be very much their reasons why it's good to remain. As for not setting out their stalls, that is a rather peculiar take on the situation.

Krystal n chips 20th Oct 2019 12:49


Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator (Post 10599031)
Outside Parliament we have the spectacle of angry remainers insisting on a Peoples' vote. In JB we have ardent remainers insisting that more of us now would vote remain, but are these really just the vociferous minority?

What of the silent majority? Not the 17.4m who voted leave but the 33m who are not the vociferous?

Would all the previous remainers vote again the remain or would they switch and vote to support the previous democratic majority? (standing by for Cornish and Chips predictable response)

Delighted to be asked, but, as you already know the answer, a futile exercise on your part in doing so.

For your benefit therefore, unless I'm still on your "ignore" list and one of the chaps relays this to you of course, I voted remain at the referendum and would not change my vote.

I say this because I am as much a European as any citizen of the EU nations, plus, I've never made any secret of my view that the UK , in every aspect, is going to suffer to the extent any recovery will always reflect the absurdity of leaving a trading bloc with all the benefits this entails. Likewise immigrants and immigration plus FOM.

How many millions have died across Europe to ensure this freedom should be cherished, not revoked thanks to the lies, deceit, bigotry and xenophobia of the likes of Farage et al and the right wing media.

Whilst there are those on JB who hold the opposite view, there are also those whose views seem to be constructed because of their own insecurities in not wishing to appear to be conforming to the perceived status quo on here.

As in real life, I have no such concerns.


StAn gelo 20th Oct 2019 13:24


Originally Posted by pax britanica (Post 10599046)
And of the 17 M who voted for how many

....have been replaced with people who would also choose to vote Leave,(assuming of course they exercise their right to vote....unlike some posters on this thread.......

On eyre 20th Oct 2019 13:27

Far be it for me in a former colony to suggest how you in the UK do things but you do seem to be in a bit of a pickle. As a starter we could probably, for a small fee, send you a copy of our written constitution and our immigration policy to help you get back on track again. You’re welcome ��

Pontius Navigator 20th Oct 2019 13:29


Originally Posted by Filler Dent (Post 10599079)
Sorry, but I've changed my vote, if it ever comes to it - and it would be to leave now.
I'm not alone either.

Quite frankly I'm sick and tired of the relentless twaddle fanatical remainers keep spouting.
Lets remember that the majority of voters - voted to leave.
I accept that decision, as surprised and disappointed as I was at the time, the embarrassment and bumbling of our representatives in parliament is quite frankly astounding.
They voted to enact article 50! Now look - [email protected] every single one of them.

.

+2

NutLoose 20th Oct 2019 13:48


Originally Posted by Mr Mac (Post 10598860)
Nutlose
Well I was in London in that demonstration (the first cause I have ever felt that strongly about) along with Mrs Mac who came down from Yorkshire as well. We were both firm Tory voters of many years, but the Tory party I supported was not this one (and until it changes I will not be voting for them again ever), with these ideas or attitudes. If this deal is so good put it to a referendum, as after all this time the UK public have no excuse for not knowing the home truths of what is happening in the UK regards Brexit, so let them chose. If they still vote to leave then so be it, I do not think any Remain supporters would have an issue with that, but this carping on about the "will of the people" is stupid. Go for a second referendum, let the people chose, and then get on with what ever the result is, but it seems that the Brexit supporters do not feel confident in their arguments, or deal to let that happen. It was quite interesting as to the types of people I came across in that demo, it will be also be equally interesting to see who is in Manchester today for the Brexit march, as I am having lunch in the city today before flying back to Germany, so may take a peek at " the people".
Regards
Mr Mac


But a second referendum will not solve anything, it would also be UN-democratic, my reasoning is with the vote so split and it going the other way in favour of remain with say 52% then what? you go with that result, but what about the leavers, they would be doubly miffed, one in their vote has been ignored and two with the second vote. so would you hold a third and a forth, even if it was another leave, we would still have more of the same, at some point everyone needs to agree a referendum took place, we had a result, we stuck with it no matter how unpalatable and moved on.

I realise you are aggrieved, but that is how democracy works, and is the fundamental backbone of the UK electoral system, it is the will of the people, or a majority there off, would you then use the same argument if there was an election and you disagreed with the party that gets in with a slender majority. Remember some MP's can be elected by one vote? do you then demand another by-election for that?

Cornish Jack 20th Oct 2019 13:50

(standing by for Cornish and Chips predictable response)
Feel free, PN, it will save my tired old fingers!
Once you've managed your fevered imaginings, you can compare with the real thing.
It is no surprise to me that the bulbous Bullingdon Buffoon has reverted to his most comforting stance - that of the "Owl of the Remove" (minus the glasses, of course!). The self-regarding petulance, when not getting his own way, equates to Bunter's similar complaints. While I have no children of my own, (that I am aware of!) observation of others' products show the same sort of temper tantrums. In the classroom, it is worrying; in the World political arena it is disastrous! How could anyone take such childish nonsense seriously? These continuing efforts by the Tories to bring their disparate warring cabals into something approaching harmony has lead us from the stupidity of offering an advisory non-specific referendum through the utter shambles of thoroughgoing political nastiness to ... what? A watered-down version of the Maybot's master plan - (which the present 'gang' ensured was defeated). The hand-waving oaf, turning in his seat to smile at his predecessor's 'herd mentality' support, makes hypocrisy a totally inadequate description! Primus inter pares, indeed! : the 'Primus' is an unremitting prat and the 'pares' are victims of 'Group Think' at its most basic. That the present Parliament can encompass such as Oliver Letwin, Keir Starmer, Dominic Grieve Liz Saville-Roberts and others who are able and willing to use their mental faculties for the good of the Country shows the pathetic, self-indulgent posturing of such as Baker, Francois, Rees-Mogg. Ford et al for what it is. The other misfortune which besets us is that the likely alternative (courtesy of our TOTALLY unrepresentative voting system) is as attractive as wet cabbage in a Lincolnshire field in winter!
(My experience of the latter was courtesy of HM's Flying Club!)
So, PN - how was it and did you manage all the parentheses?:E

Pontius Navigator 20th Oct 2019 13:56


So, PN - how was it and did you manage all the parentheses?
.




No. .

NutLoose 20th Oct 2019 14:00


Originally Posted by Alsacienne (Post 10598667)
My question was hypothetical .... but does anyone know if BJ DID sign both letters? (And was it HIS signature?)

1st was a photocopy, hardly a long lasting document to be stored in the vaults in Brussels, how they must be ruing the day they never listened to Cameron and gave some leeway in his negotiations.

yellowtriumph 20th Oct 2019 14:12


Originally Posted by Cornish Jack (Post 10599132)
(standing by for Cornish and Chips predictable response)
Feel free, PN, it will save my tired old fingers!
Once you've managed your fevered imaginings, you can compare with the real thing.
It is no surprise to me that the bulbous Bullingdon Buffoon has reverted to his most comforting stance - that of the "Owl of the Remove" (minus the glasses, of course!). The self-regarding petulance, when not getting his own way, equates to Bunter's similar complaints. While I have no children of my own, (that I am aware of!) observation of others' products show the same sort of temper tantrums. In the classroom, it is worrying; in the World political arena it is disastrous! How could anyone take such childish nonsense seriously? These continuing efforts by the Tories to bring their disparate warring cabals into something approaching harmony has lead us from the stupidity of offering an advisory non-specific referendum through the utter shambles of thoroughgoing political nastiness to ... what? A watered-down version of the Maybot's master plan - (which the present 'gang' ensured was defeated). The hand-waving oaf, turning in his seat to smile at his predecessor's 'herd mentality' support, makes hypocrisy a totally inadequate description! Primus inter pares, indeed! : the 'Primus' is an unremitting prat and the 'pares' are victims of 'Group Think' at its most basic. That the present Parliament can encompass such as Oliver Letwin, Keir Starmer, Dominic Grieve Liz Saville-Roberts and others who are able and willing to use their mental faculties for the good of the Country shows the pathetic, self-indulgent posturing of such as Baker, Francois, Rees-Mogg. Ford et al for what it is. The other misfortune which besets us is that the likely alternative (courtesy of our TOTALLY unrepresentative voting system) is as attractive as wet cabbage in a Lincolnshire field in winter!
(My experience of the latter was courtesy of HM's Flying Club!)
So, PN - how was it and did you manage all the parentheses?:E

Have you noticed that you never see Dominic Grieve and Mike Mercury in the same room together?

ORAC 20th Oct 2019 14:27

Grauniad: Government to seek meaningful vote on Brexit deal on Monday

The order paper for Monday confirms the government will seek a meaningful vote on its Brexit deal again, as announced by Jacob Rees-Mogg, the leader of the House of Commons, on Saturday.

However, the Speaker of the Commons may disallow this because the government already had one attempt at getting the motion through on Saturday, when it was amended by parliament to prevent it being a meaningful vote.

KelvinD 20th Oct 2019 14:29


The hand-waving oaf, turning in his seat to smile at his predecessor's 'herd mentality' support
Like you Cornish Jack, I watched that on the telly and found that particular scene somewhat uncomfortable viewing. The way the moron was grinning in a moronic cum messianic manner was horrible to watch. I have no love for May but I couldn't help thinking "Has the man no decency at all? He is grinning like a spoiled brat and no doubt thinking how clever he has been. He betrayed May and yet here he is positively drooling at the demonstration by May of unswerving and undeserved loyalty to the man who stabbed her in the back because he fancied the nice des-res in Downing Street"! I think May should have just kept quiet.
During the exchange in the Commons yesterday, I was watching on tinternet and just as Kier Starmer was about to make Mr Barclay retract something he had said about Starmer, the BBC cut to a pudding faced lady who happily reminded me that this was the BBC News channel and.... I knew that when I selected the live feed on tinternet! So Starmer's challenge and the retraction of whatener Barclay had said was missed. Did anybody else catch it?
And could Caroline Flint be the next candidate for deselection by the Labour party?

Echo Romeo 20th Oct 2019 15:40

And could Caroline Flint be the next candidate for deselection by the Labour party? Undoubtedly.

charliegolf 20th Oct 2019 15:56


Originally Posted by KelvinD (Post 10599158)
The way the moron was grinning in a moronic cum messianic manner was horrible to watch. I have no love for May but I couldn't help thinking "Has the man no decency at all? He is grinning like a spoiled brat and no doubt thinking how clever he has been. He betrayed May and yet here he is positively drooling at the demonstration by May of unswerving and undeserved loyalty to the man who stabbed her in the back because he fancied the nice des-res in Downing Street"! I think May should have just kept quiet.

There was on social media, a very funny, and I am sure accurate, pic of May smirking with the caption, "Yaaaaaas! I'm not the worst prime Minister any more!"

How could one disagree!

CG

rogerg 20th Oct 2019 16:24

Seeing all the panicky posts from the remainers makes me sure that Boris has done it!!

DON T 20th Oct 2019 17:55

If we had a second referendum on Brexit, how could we refuse a second referendum on Scottish independence. After all we are a democracy or are we?

Chronus 20th Oct 2019 19:20


Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator (Post 10599031)
Outside Parliament we have the spectacle of angry remainers insisting on a Peoples' vote. In JB we have ardent remainers insisting that more of us now would vote remain, but are these really just the vociferous minority?

What of the silent majority? Not the 17.4m who voted leave but the 33m who are not the vociferous?

Would all the previous remainers vote again the remain or would they switch and vote to support the previous democratic majority? (standing by for Cornish and Chips predictable response)

Here is the voting results of the 2016 referendumUnited Kingdom European Union membership referendumShould the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?LocationUnited Kingdom (including Gibraltar)Date23 June 2016ResultsVotes%Leave17,410,74251.89%Remain16,141,24148.11%Valid votes33,551,98399.92%Invalid or blank votes25,3590.08%Total votes33,577,342. 100.00%Registered voters/turnout46,500,00172.21%

Source: Wikipedia

Cannot see where the 33 million silent majority comes from. According to the above the ostrich population is 13 million. I don`t know how many of these are left in the world, but it would be fair to say we must have one of the largest population.

Pontius Navigator 20th Oct 2019 19:55

OK Chronus, Not the 17.4m who voted leave but the 30m who are not the vociferous?

I was only picking a figure.

Mr Mac 20th Oct 2019 19:55


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 10599130)
But a second referendum will not solve anything, it would also be UN-democratic, my reasoning is with the vote so split and it going the other way in favour of remain with say 52% then what? you go with that result, but what about the leavers, they would be doubly miffed, one in their vote has been ignored and two with the second vote. so would you hold a third and a forth, even if it was another leave, we would still have more of the same, at some point everyone needs to agree a referendum took place, we had a result, we stuck with it no matter how unpalatable and moved on.

I realise you are aggrieved, but that is how democracy works, and is the fundamental backbone of the UK electoral system, it is the will of the people, or a majority there off, would you then use the same argument if there was an election and you disagreed with the party that gets in with a slender majority. Remember some MP's can be elected by one vote? do you then demand another by-election for that?


Nutlose
Not aggrieved, disappointed, also I am not sure undemocratic could come into it, as we have seen by the actions yesterday, and indeed today by Boris, he is quite happy too twist and possibly break the law if it suits his purpose. To be honest if a referendum was to be granted, I for one would move the bar up, which Cameron should have done in the first place incidentally (I could not agree to even change the coffee supplier in the office on the old basis, and I own the company !!). Therefore move it up to say 60%, for or against, which would seem a more representative margin, and this would remove any calls for another referendum, as the margin would be seen to be a clear majority, be that for against. In short put up, or shut up, for either party, and put an end to it, or until the country decides differently through GE in future years.

As an aside after a good lunch, I talked Mrs Mac into going in search of the Pro Brexit march. I expected streets to be cordoned off etc for a portion of the 17m, but found nothing. I resorted to asking one of Manchester's finest where this pro Brexit march was to be held, and was told it was on Saturday, and I missed it ! Well I must have been given duff info, as I was told Sunday, so I asked the young officer who actually was on duty on the Saturday, why we had not heard about it. He informed me there were at most 200 supporters, more supporters at Stalybridge FC, were his actual words ! If your 17m voters are so determined I was not impressed how they show there support for it. As for the UK being the new Singapore, best of luck, you do not get of bed early enough as nation, or work as smartly.

Also after a conversation with a Tory Scot on the plane back to Munich, I can see this breaking up the UK, with NI going South, and Scotland paddling its own canoe in the not too distant future, probably within my lifetime. He, from a Tory heartland in Scotland, did not disagree in my assertion. Not sure about Wales, as my only connection is through Mrs Mac who is twice removed, but after victory today in Japan was almost breaking into Land of my fathers and all that. As a Scot with ancestry coming south with the rebellion, and supporting Scottish rugby I have learnt to keep quiet recently.

We will see what happens in the coming week, but may you live in interesting times, springs to mind.

Kind regards
Mr Mac


DON T 20th Oct 2019 20:15


Originally Posted by Mr Mac (Post 10599341)
NutloseAlso after a conversation with a Tory Scot on the plane back to Munich, I can see this breaking up the UK, with NI going South, and Scotland paddling its own canoe in the not too distant future, probably within my lifetime. He, from a Tory heartland in Scotland, did not disagree in my assertion. Kind regards
Mr Mac

Which was the reason for my previous post. Scotland wants to remain so if they leave the UK do we then have a third referendum because the majority for leave could increase.


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