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Pontius Navigator 16th Oct 2019 18:15

Fly, thought it might be helpful to explain our anonymous voting system.

Your name is marked off in the register. Your register number is recorded on a number list. A voting slip corresponding to the number on the list is issued to the voter.

Clearly voting slip correlated with the voter's number could lead back to the individual.

The link is that list, the 'Corresponding Number List'. CNLs are held separately under deal for a period of time (I don't know how long). The voting slips having been counted and sorted against candidates names will be bundled and held separately. The two can only be compared if authorised by a judge.(I don't know how difficult that would be).

To find the 1,000 odd votes from one polling station might involve sorting through 40,000 odd slips to find the 1,000 you are looking for. Not easy and not cheap.

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LowNSlow 16th Oct 2019 18:15

)_PN; Who decided it was a good idea? I suspect that there was pressure to use funds that were available and it was a popular project in the Welsh Assembly. The need for an upgrade was recognised back in 1990 and the cost has always been a source of concern. The EU appear to have contributed £82 million of the £800+ million total cost.

KnC; I think it could have been better spent elsewhere and the current project of basically building a motorway from Abergavenny to Neath is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
Regarding the budget over-run, my background is construction and I am very aware that any budget is basically a fantasy until the ground is broken and reality is revealed for all to see.
The way the road is being built down the valley to Abergavenny is civil engineering at it's finest but is it really necessary? I don't think so (and neither do some of my relatives who live in Merthyr and Abergavenny) but there we go!

Chronus 16th Oct 2019 18:17


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 10595650)
PN; not necessarily, the EU signs on the A465 "Heads of the Valleys" road are quite prominent:

http://i1.walesonline.co.uk/news/wal...S/s615b/e2.jpgIt's currently running £54 million over budget and quite why they are spending so much money on a road which doesn't have that much traffic is beyond me.....

How else will we get all that food, wine, clothing and every thing else, shipped from abroad into our warehouses, distribution centers and supermarkets. How would you expect Sir Dyson `s supersonic vac cleaners continue to get to Wales and no Welsh lass kicks up a fuss for shifting his factory to cheap as chips lands and she is left with a house full of dust. By the way that`s not coal dust, Sir`s vac cleaners wouldn`t have coped with that all that well.

gizmo71 16th Oct 2019 18:32


Originally Posted by Just a spotter (Post 10595794)
Some conflicting reports as to whether the DUP are on board or not

Can some kind soul explain why the DUP are still relevant when Boris no longer has a majority with them? I understand why they were relevant under May but under Boris, surely there aren't enough of them (is it 10?) to make any real difference now?

Islandlad 16th Oct 2019 18:38


Originally Posted by felixflyer (Post 10595524)

One fact you cannot get away from however, no matter how much remoaners try, is that you cannot ignore the result of a democratic vote without doing untold damage. The way Corbyn & Swinson are talking about voter ID and saying it might reduce voter turnout beggars belief. What will affect voter turnout is 17.4m voters being told to vote again as they were too stupid to know what they were voting for. If Brexit doesn't go ahead for whatever reason then millions will never vote again. That is far more concerning than manufacturers JIT system being interrupted for a few weeks, or more likely, days.

That sounds like one of those prediction's you don't like.

17.4 being asked to vote again. If they can't cope with the democratic process then perhaps it's best they don't vote. Sensitive little flowers. They don't have to vote again :E

charliegolf 16th Oct 2019 18:42


Originally Posted by gizmo71 (Post 10595961)
Can some kind soul explain why the DUP are still relevant when Boris no longer has a majority with them? I understand why they were relevant under May but under Boris, surely there aren't enough of them (is it 10?) to make any real difference now?

Cos they MAY still hold the balance of power over the deal due to the many splits in parties and factions. There's unlikely to be much more than ten votes in any of the forthcoming votes.

CG

Islandlad 16th Oct 2019 18:44


Originally Posted by Fareastdriver (Post 10595917)
If we hadn't given so much money to the EU we could have done it ourselves.

The rising tide of a successful EU raises all ships. Trading with the EU will cost 12% if Brexit occurs. Either way we pay.
Didn't Boris and Nige tell you that on your way to vote?

Effluent Man 16th Oct 2019 19:10

I'm not sure about that. Philip Hammond on Andrew Neil Show implying that he is unlikely to support the deal. He went on to say that the heart of the Tory party is now aligned with the US Republican hard right .

Steepclimb 16th Oct 2019 19:39


Originally Posted by gizmo71 (Post 10595961)
Can some kind soul explain why the DUP are still relevant when Boris no longer has a majority with them? I understand why they were relevant under May but under Boris, surely there aren't enough of them (is it 10?) to make any real difference now?

No kind soul can explain. They are irrelevant. They're not even representive of that weird little political anomaly that is the British controlled part of Ireland.
What Brexit has done is exposed how odd it is.
How odd is it that part of Ireland is still controlled by England, yet indeed English independence from what they perceive the tyranny of the EU is a huge part of their of their own perception of freedom.

Irish freedom is apparently meaningless but English freedom trumps everything. Pun intended.

One point. I'm no republican. I would be happy to retain a connection to Britain.
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ORAC 16th Oct 2019 19:48

Doubtless there will those here arguing the poll wasn’t large enough. Though it appears little has changed since 2016.....

https://www.comresglobal.com/polls/i...-october-2019/

ITN BREXIT REFERENDUM POLL OCTOBER 2019
Biggest Poll on Brexit since referendum
  • 26,000 adults surveyed by ComRes across the UK.
  • Results shows more than half (54%) of British public support the UK abiding by the referendum result and leaving the EU, regardless of the way they voted in the 2016 Referendum.
  • More people’s preferred outcome is now for the UK to leave the European Union (50% v 42% remain).
  • However, when the “don’t knows” (of those expressing an opinion) are excluded, over half say their preferred outcome is for the UK to leave the EU (54%) compared to less than half who say their preferred outcome is for the UK to remain in the EU (46%)....

pax britanica 16th Oct 2019 19:53

And on trade deals- if we elave who will we do rade deals with

well leavign aside a couple of places with the GDP of Luton all the trade deals Fox did were exactly the same as exisiting ones witht he EU

EU now has FTAs with Japan Korea and Canada so no room for improvement there

that leave China India and USA , none of whom will give us a better deal than the Eu for all kinds of reasons, what do India have that we want , What do China want thatwe have-Smoked salmon and whiskey apparently, now there is a huge pillar for the new British economy especially as it all comes from Scotland (and thats leaving aside HK but we have already abandoned them anyway). As for USA their biggest export is agriculture which will of course crush British farming into the ground on economics and economies of scale -the farmers have now realised this of course and suddenly realize the EU CAP is a really good idea

that leaves basically no one , maybe South America but that is a continent with almost no British connection whatsoever and which doesnt make anything we might want so I imagine thats why Boris is drowning us in debt with huge borrowings requiring more austerity in a few years to pay back while slime like JRM whose investment company made £105M profit last year and paid £ZERO in UK taxes.

But hey lets take back control to our tiny Island with its dishonest government and outdated parliament and see just how irrelevant we are in today's world; but what does that matter so long as we remain the largest tax haven and money laundering centre in the world via the City and its super shady (or should that be sunny) island' offshore financial centres

Exrigger 16th Oct 2019 20:33

What does china want from the UK:

https://researchbriefings.files.parl...9/CBP-7379.pdf

and India:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/dat...ports-partners

Not really difficult to search this information before claiming that these two countries out of many oft quoted don't want anything from the UK and the inference that we don't currently export to, or import from, these countries around the world and post Brexit it is feasible that better deals and increased trading could/might etc etc follow, but never let facts get in the way of a late evening rant.

The obvious comeback is it is because of the EU we do all this trade with the rest of the world and with it the inference that it will all stop post Brexit, well I think that is going to prove somewhat of a myth.

Effluent Man 16th Oct 2019 20:34

Sir John Curtice says the ComRes poll was flawed due to giving two leave options and one remain. Personally I think that if you ask a question as to if people want NoDeal then a number of them will equate NoDeal with Revoke. No other poll has given a Leave majority for ages.

zoigberg 16th Oct 2019 20:47



Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 10596045)
Doubtless there will those here arguing the poll wasn’t large enough. Though it appears little has changed since 2016.....

https://www.comresglobal.com/polls/i...-october-2019/

ITN BREXIT REFERENDUM POLL OCTOBER 2019
Biggest Poll on Brexit since referendum
  • 26,000 adults surveyed by ComRes across the UK.
  • Results shows more than half (54%) of British public support the UK abiding by the referendum result and leaving the EU, regardless of the way they voted in the 2016 Referendum.
  • More people’s preferred outcome is now for the UK to leave the European Union (50% v 42% remain).
  • However, when the “don’t knows” (of those expressing an opinion) are excluded, over half say their preferred outcome is for the UK to leave the EU (54%) compared to less than half who say their preferred outcome is for the UK to remain in the EU (46%)....

Interesting survey. Goes a lot in to the demographics of who is saying what, depending on age, part of the country, sex etc
Notable that the percentage for leave is about the same (54% now). Another referendum would likely solve nothing
Also notable the percentage saying leave with No Deal is 20%.
26,000 people sounds like a very big survey no?

Steepclimb 16th Oct 2019 21:10

Orac, since forever you've been a clear eyed beacon of common sense since I've been in this iteration in the last century. But they're not paying attention.

Common sense is lost cause.


Fly Aiprt 16th Oct 2019 21:11


Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator (Post 10595945)
Fly, thought it might be helpful to explain our anonymous voting system.

Your name is marked off in the register. Your register number is recorded on a number list. A voting slip corresponding to the number on the list is issued to the voter.

Clearly voting slip correlated with the voter's number could lead back to the individual.​​​​​
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Pontius, thanks for the info.
As you can imagine, I would not qualify the above as "anonymous", but rather more or less tracking.
This couldn't be accepted in my country where vote is secret and voting slips really anonymous.
When you enter the polling station, all the voting slips (= bulletins) are presented on a table. You must take them and enter a voting booth where you make your choice and put it in an envelope.
You are not allowed to do that in public.
Then you go to the transparent voting box where clerks check you ID and make you sign in front of your name on the voters list.
Only then are you allowed to put your envelope into the voting box which opens only for your envelope, with an audible ring.
Letting people know what vote you are making is prohibited (of course once you have voted, you can show or say wahtever you want).
Any mark on the voting slip, renders it void (= bulletin nul)

WingNut60 16th Oct 2019 22:43

My question would be "what is the purpose of that unique identifier on the voting slip?".

Surely, once a voter has been identified and verified, what he elects to do with his voting slip is of no consequence to anyone.
There are other ways to make the voting slip identifiable as a valid instrument if you really need to have that level of verification.

NutLoose 16th Oct 2019 23:43


Originally Posted by Steepclimb (Post 10596032)
No kind soul can explain. They are irrelevant. They're not even representive of that weird little political anomaly that is the British controlled part of Ireland.
What Brexit has done is exposed how odd it is.
How odd is it that part of Ireland is still controlled by England, yet indeed English independence from what they perceive the tyranny of the EU is a huge part of their of their own perception of freedom.

Irish freedom is apparently meaningless but English freedom trumps everything. Pun intended.

One point. I'm no republican. I would be happy to retain a connection to Britain.
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Ireland is a difficult subject as a lot of the population is tied to the UK not Eire, so how would you rectify that? Throw them under the Bus, and it's not England that "controls" Ireland, the laws and everything else are set by parliament that is a combination of all of the four nations, England is the only country that does not actually have its own assembly as well.

It also is NOT an English fight for independence against the EU, there was NO independent nation vote to leave and I wish people would stop inferring there was, it was a single combined vote.

NutLoose 16th Oct 2019 23:59


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 10596178)
My question would be "what is the purpose of that unique identifier on the voting slip?".

Surely, once a voter has been identified and verified, what he elects to do with his voting slip is of no consequence to anyone.
There are other ways to make the voting slip identifiable as a valid instrument if you really need to have that level of verification.

Because it prevents fraud as you can link voters to individual forms, that way you couldn't have unscrupulous people slipping multiple forms into the box or in the system later, they are all accounted for.
I don't know how it works, but I suppose if there is a doubt they could scan the numbers and also check for multiples or blanks.

Fly Aiprt 17th Oct 2019 02:24


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 10596222)


Because it prevents fraud as you can link voters to individual forms,

Funny that some people call that "democratic", while at the same time refusing IDs on the basis that it would allow some tracking of individuals.
But it doesn't matter : according to EU news, a deal is being concluded for presentation before the Summit today.
Whether the Parliament will approve it or not is a matter of 2 days.
So this election/referendum issue is purely theoretical, and won't matter any longer for your partners.



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