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VP959 16th Sep 2019 20:36

The reason I voted to leave was because for a few years I was associated with EU rule making, primarily the EMC Directive and the LV Directive. The level of commercial interference by established European manufacturers had to be seen to be believed. There was no question of regulation being primarily framed to ensure that goods were safe, or performed within reasonably sensibly defined limits, the emphasis was on fitting the regulations around the specifications of established products from powerful European manufacturers. There was no comparison with the way that British Standards had normally been framed at all.

I left the job early, as I just couldn't tolerate what was going on, and moved back to a solely defence-related post, but I've not forgotten just how corrupt and incompetent some of those involved in rulemaking were. The final straw for me was when I was asked to organise prostitutes, free of charge, for officials visiting the UK. When I politely refused, and pointed out that there was no way that public funds could be used for such a purpose, the reaction from my EU colleagues was one of amazement.

zoigberg 16th Sep 2019 21:01


Originally Posted by B Fraser (Post 10571560)

It’s worth commenting on this as it seems to rear its head every now and again.

Article 1 of the above Regulation states that this is an import standard, applying primarily to bananas originating in third countries "at the stage of release for free circulation". It applies at the dockside, once the bananas have arrived on the territory of an EU Member State. It does not apply to the retail product sold to the final consumer.

Article 2 states that ‘standards referred to in Article 1 shall not affect the application, at later stages of marketing, of national rules’

i.e. National rules take precedence over the above when it comes to putting bananas on the shelves in shops.

Misinterpretation of the Regulation is the basis for Boris’ bent bananas rants over the last few years.
You can see the complete rebuttal here
EU Referendum: a matter of regulation


VP959 16th Sep 2019 21:09


Originally Posted by zoigberg (Post 10571596)

Article 1 of the above Regulation states that this is an import standard, applying primarily to bananas originating in third countries "at the stage of release for free circulation". It applies at the dockside, once the bananas have arrived on the territory of an EU Member State. It does not apply to the retail product sold to the final consumer.

Article 2 states that ‘standards referred to in Article 1 shall not affect the application, at later stages of marketing, of national rules’



Hmmm... So, this only applies to bananas that are imported into the EU, at the point of import.

That begs the question as to exactly what percentage of bananas sold in the EU are imported into the EU, and, perhaps more significantly, what percentage of bananas sold in the EU are grown within the EU, and so exempt from these regulations?

It's seemingly fine for bananas to somehow become bent, or otherwise non-compliant, after they have been imported. Not sure how this could happen, mind.

The EU, is, of course, well-known as being one of the world's major banana growing regions...

zoigberg 16th Sep 2019 21:15

I would guess the standard applies to most bananas as most are imported. But the regulation does not apply in the supermarkets and shops where they are sold to the likes of you and I as national rules take precedence there.
We are not being told how to present our bananas in our shops as has been claimed repeatedly

ORAC 16th Sep 2019 21:21


The EU, is, of course, well-known as being one of the world's major banana growing regions...
Such rules aren’t written without ulterior motives, and Brexit consequences......

https://www.franceagroalimentaire.co...chnical-sheet/

In Europe, according to EU data, Spain is the largest producer, producing 350,000 tonnes in the Canary Islands in 2009, followed by France with 266,000 tonnes from Martinique and Guadeloupe in 2010, Greece, from Crete and Laconia, and Portugal (Madeira, Azorez and the Algarve).......

The production of French bananas is concentrated in its overseas territories in the Caribbean. In fact one in five farms in Martinique cultivates bananas, and one in ten in Guadeloupe, which accounts for respectively 25% and 10% of the total area under cultivation in each overseas department. In Martinique, farms are usually of average size, with 41% of farms devoting 3-10 hectares to banana cultivation. In Guadeloupe, 56% of banana-growing farms devote less than 1 hectare to this crop. (Source: French Ministry of Agriculture).

https://epamonitoring.net/why-elimin...ana-exporters/

B Fraser 16th Sep 2019 21:30


Originally Posted by zoigberg (Post 10571596)
. It applies at the dockside, once the bananas have arrived on the territory of an EU Member State. It does not apply to the retail product sold to the final consumer.

Article 2 states that ‘standards referred to in Article 1 shall not affect the application, at later stages of marketing, of national rules’

i.e. National rules take precedence over the above when it comes to putting bananas on the shelves in shops.

The existence of the regulation was pointed out to me by a member of the Scottish government with responsibility for food and drink so it is in force within the UK. I will quote him directly "Now Regulation 1333/2011, and enforced under the Marketing of Bananas (Scotland) Regulations 2012." The document also includes legislation setting out how bananas shall be displayed on a shelf and therefore applies in a retail setting.

The powers of the banana police (Scotland) are described at The Marketing of Bananas (Scotland) Regulations 2012

racedo 16th Sep 2019 21:33


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 10571610)


Such rules aren’t written without ulterior motives, and Brexit consequences......

https://www.franceagroalimentaire.co...chnical-sheet/

In Europe, according to EU data, Spain is the largest producer, producing 350,000 tonnes in the Canary Islands in 2009, followed by France with 266,000 tonnes from Martinique and Guadeloupe in 2010, Greece, from Crete and Laconia, and Portugal (Madeira, Azorez and the Algarve).......

The production of French bananas is concentrated in its overseas territories in the Caribbean. In fact one in five farms in Martinique cultivates bananas, and one in ten in Guadeloupe, which accounts for respectively 25% and 10% of the total area under cultivation in each overseas department. In Martinique, farms are usually of average size, with 41% of farms devoting 3-10 hectares to banana cultivation. In Guadeloupe, 56% of banana-growing farms devote less than 1 hectare to this crop. (Source: French Ministry of Agriculture).

https://epamonitoring.net/why-elimin...ana-exporters/

So rules set up to protect small farmers in EU member states rather than mega multinationals who have been involved in massive land clearance and wars in central america at the expense of the native population.

Torquetalk 16th Sep 2019 21:35


Originally Posted by B Fraser (Post 10571619)
The existence of the regulation was pointed out to me by a member of the Scottish government with responsibility for food and drink so it is in force within the UK. I will quote him directly "Now Regulation 1333/2011, and enforced under the Marketing of Bananas (Scotland) Regulations 2012." The document also includes legislation setting out how bananas shall be displayed on a shelf and therefore applies in a retail setting.

The powers of the banana police (Scotland) are described at The Marketing of Bananas (Scotland) Regulations 2012

perhaps soon you can escape this legislative lunacy with a hard Brexit and the UK can be free and completely bananas

racedo 16th Sep 2019 21:35


Originally Posted by B Fraser (Post 10571619)
The existence of the regulation was pointed out to me by a member of the Scottish government with responsibility for food and drink so it is in force within the UK. I will quote him directly "Now Regulation 1333/2011, and enforced under the Marketing of Bananas (Scotland) Regulations 2012." The document also includes legislation setting out how bananas shall be displayed on a shelf and therefore applies in a retail setting.

The powers of the banana police (Scotland) are described at The Marketing of Bananas (Scotland) Regulations 2012

That legislation brought in by NATIONAL authorities not EU. They sought not to change any of it which they could have done.

Fly Aiprt 16th Sep 2019 21:42


Originally Posted by B Fraser (Post 10571560)
Annex 1 11.A states that bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers". That statement infers that a normal maximum curvature must be specified somewhere otherwise how could any banana be abnormal. The madness continues in that in the same annex V.c, it states that (when positioning the fruit on a shelf for sale) only one cluster of three bananas may be present in a row. It would also appear that no pair of bananas joined at the stalk may be sold at all although it appears you are permitted to purchase two single bananas.

Had a look at those standards.
Didn't make me chuckle, but I must say that working in aviation I'm used to see, read and comply with trade or industry standards.
As the UK is not a banana producer (except maybe in Gibraltar ?), it is hard to see how agreeing with a common banana trade standard already established by producers and traders would condition an exit from the Union...

No "madness" found, just standards to protect traders, producers and clients.
For instance, why an honest trader or reseller would want to evade such requirement as those ?

. Packaging
  • The bananas must be packed in such a way as to protect the produce properly.
  • The materials used inside the package must be new, clean and of a nature such as to avoid causing any external or internal deterioration of the produce.
  • The use of materials such as, in particular, wrapping papers or adhesive labels bearing commercial indications is allowed provided that the printing and labelling is done with a non-toxic ink or glue.
  • Packages must be free from any foreign matter.

Would really any grocers be happy to pay for fruit not respecting the above and the rest ?

Or is it a British trait to always wish to evade rules or quality standards, swindle clients etc. ?

Bottom line, the OP's opinion might be a little biassed ;-)






B Fraser 16th Sep 2019 21:49


Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt (Post 10571632)
No "madness" found, just standards to protect traders, producers and clients.

That's right, the public must be protected from seeing more than one bunch of 3 bananas on a shelf. The good people of Northern Ireland must also be sleeping soundly knowing that their fruity comestibles are displayed to a standard set out by Brussels. Regulation 1333/2011 was reinforced only this year. Well done everyone ! The Marketing of Bananas Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2019

katya2607 16th Sep 2019 22:03

Yuck, bananas are just slimy revolting excuses for a fruit. Happy to take Mg and K in tablet form.

WingNut60 16th Sep 2019 22:07

Sorry once again, but as an outsider I need to ask, why do you need regulations at all that define acceptable shape and presentation?

I fully understand the need for quarantine and safety regulations to ensure product quality and protect from invasive passengers and diseases but why you would want to put a restriction on size and shape I just can not imagine.
Restricting hands to just two or three fingers might (??) be related to inspection for vermin, but I doubt it.
Most of the specified restrictions seem to be aimed firmly at final presentation and then according to someones idea of what a good banana looks like.

For anyone who has spent time in Asia, one of the delights is the extensive range of bananas available at the local markets.
Most of the nicest bananas I have eaten would be precluded by these regulations when, surely, most of this could be left to the choice of the end purchaser.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....58d793ad1e.jpg
As an aside, the traditional name for Queenslanders is "banana benders"; the people who put the bends in the bananas.

For those who wish to explore the range of bananas (and other fruits) that could be available to EU customers if they were not so anal, I recommend Or Tor Kor Farmers Market, accross the road from Chatachak in Bangkok / Kaemphengphet for a safe, clean and thoroughly enjoyable taste experience.

Mr Optimistic 16th Sep 2019 22:51

So now the EU are resorting to playground language and tactics too. Great. All this talk about an agreement which wasn't agreed by parliament, so it's a rejected proposal and there is no agreement. UK is making a mistake in always going to them. Given the facts, invite the EU to address the reluctant parliament to see if they can sell the ' agreement' to the House.

Fly Aiprt 16th Sep 2019 23:20


Originally Posted by B Fraser (Post 10571637)
That's right, the public must be protected from seeing more than one bunch of 3 bananas on a shelf.

Where in the world, did you see that one : a bunch of 3 bananas on shelf ?!?
Didn't it occur to you sir, that you might have misread a too complicated document destined to specialists, which obviously you are not ?
If you are the fact checking type, maybe you'll be interested in learning that a hand of banana is not a bunch.
  • A single banana is called a finger
  • A cluster of fingers (5–6) is a hand
  • All the hands on a stem form a bunch
If you're not, well no problem sir, you can go back to your beer and armchair philosophy...







Avionker 17th Sep 2019 00:22


Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic (Post 10571689)
So now the EU are resorting to playground language and tactics too. Great. All this talk about an agreement which wasn't agreed by parliament, so it's a rejected proposal and there is no agreement. UK is making a mistake in always going to them. Given the facts, invite the EU to address the reluctant parliament to see if they can sell the ' agreement' to the House.

The facts are that there are two parties in the negotiations. The U.K. was, and is, represented by the Government. They came to an agreement with the EU. The fact that the Government could not get that deal accepted in Parliament is not the EU’s fault.

You can blame the EU or the Labour Party, the Liberals, the SNP or whoever you want if it makes you feel better. It does not change the fact that the Conservative party instigated Brexit. They decided that they alone should negotiate, even though the ramifications of Brexit are so great that common sense dictated a more conciliatory and inclusive approach was required.

They are, and have been for some time, a broken, fractured mess. And now they have done the same to the U.K., by putting their own interests ahead of the nations.

Even now the clown who currently resides at 10 Downing St is playing f**king games instead of trying to get Parliament onside.


bulldog89 17th Sep 2019 00:29

Bananas, kettles and vacuum cleaners.
Just leave, you're wasting everyone's time.

WingNut60 17th Sep 2019 00:55


Originally Posted by bulldog89 (Post 10571732)
Bananas, kettles and vacuum cleaners.
Just leave, you're wasting everyone's time.

I thought that was the underlying theme of "How to manage Brexit".
Unless you think that the last three+ years is the epitome of productivity then this entire f...g thread is a waste of time.

And again, from one outsiders point of view, yes "Just leave, you're wasting everyone's time".

Islandlad 17th Sep 2019 01:34


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 10571747)
I thought that was the underlying theme of "How to manage Brexit".
Unless you think that the last three+ years is the epitome of productivity then this entire f...g thread is a waste of time.

And again, from one outsiders point of view, yes "Just leave, you're wasting everyone's time".

The last 3 years are the debate that should have happened before the referendum. There is no doubt the country is well informed now. There is nothing we don't know about the subject of Brexit and our links with the EU. The most informed and engaged electorate in decades.

Would many people change their mind? Have many? If put back to the people to decide; what sort of Brexit should we be offered? There are clearly now 3 options. There always were but the option Boris the Animated Prime Minister never told us that because he thought:

a. Cameron's referendum would deliver a remain result. How wrong that was.
b. The leadership would be up for grabs at a later date and his campaign was run on the Brexit bus. How wrong that was.
c. The EU would offer the perfect deal. How wrong that was.
d. Gove was his mate. How wrong that was.
e. No-deal Brexit would never be an option.
f. When he became PM he would have a nice majority.
g. The EU are soft negotiators
h. He would be taken seriously
i. The ERG or Corby would not make trouble

Who would have thought that 3 years on it is still being worked out? Vote Lib Dem and it will never be spoken of again. The new option on the table. A bold and risky move. And finally,

i. The Lib Dems would have a tough leader ready to play fast and loose with democracy. Who would have thought?

Imagegear 17th Sep 2019 02:02

This Banana discussion is becoming tedious.

Could the panel discuss the legislation that allows "Le Peche Plat", (Flat Peach), an obviously deformed fruit to be marketed across the EU. Does an exemption exist if the fruit is bred within the EU, or has the deformed fruit been declared to be not deformed?

IG



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