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WingNut60 15th Sep 2019 23:22


Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt (Post 10570867)
Now it seems something has been missed in the discussion : power.
Electrical appliances don't work with magic, but with electricity...
More powerful means more amperes and fatter wires and circuit breakers (are British home installations capable of withstanding higher power ?)

No, it was not missed at all.
More powerful means more watts and corresponding increase in amperes.
But that's what the UK had BEFORE imposition of the wattage limitation.
Wiring and breakers are sized to suit the entire circuit load which, in houses, normally involves more than one GPO.

Upping the wattage on a single outlet is hardly likely to overload a multi-outlet circuit.


And more power means bigger alternators and power plants...which poor Britain doesn't have in sufficient number.
Brits have to import electricity from France and NL.
There is no increase in POWER required to boil the millions of electric tea kettles in Britain just because you mandate a wattage decrease.
The energy required to boil 10 million cups of tea remains the same.
The individual load from each kettle will be reduced but each individual kettle must be plugged in just a little bit longer to compensate.

If the target really was energy saving then they'd have been better off mandating improved insulation for the kettles.

Alternators and power plants do NOT need to be increased in size (well, marginally because of the increased heat loss mentioned)
Then, also refer previous posts on heat loss (transfer).


Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt (Post 10570895)
Beg your pardon ?

Here endeth your physics lesson.

Fly Aiprt 15th Sep 2019 23:43


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 10570904)
Alternators and power plants do NOT need to be increased in size (well, marginally because of the increased heat loss mentioned)


Here endeth your physics lesson.

Any high school book will help on that
It's all about power, not energy.
Be it for 1 hour or 10 hours, if you need 1kA, your alternator needs to be dimensioned for it, like it or lump it...
If you need 10 kA, then you need 10 such alternators, even for 6 minutes (same energy as 1h above).

Some simplified formulas (works for RMS values) :
Power : P=UI
Energy : P=UIt
An alternator is an inheritently intensity limited machine. It can only supply so much amperes (I) at a given voltage (U)

WingNut60 16th Sep 2019 00:33


Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt (Post 10570917)
Any high school book will help on that
It's all about power, not energy.
Be it for 1 hour or 10 hours, if you need 1kA, your alternator needs to be dimensioned for it, like it or lump it...
If you need 10 kA, then you need 10 such alternators, even for 6 minutes (same energy as 1h above).

Some simplified formulas (works for RMS values) :
Power : P=UI
Energy : P=UIt
An alternator is an inheritently intensity limited machine. It can only supply so much amperes (I) at a given voltage (U)

The average circuit load will not vary. The energy (watt/hours) required to boil the water will not change.
The energy required to boil 10 million cups of tea will not change.

At any one time there will be more kettles in operation at a lower wattage = same total load (kilowatts, megawatts, or wattever).
Instantaneous load on the power station will not change other than a slight increase because of increased heat loss because it takes longer to boil each kettle.

Dr Jekyll 16th Sep 2019 05:35


Originally Posted by Economics101 (Post 10570851)
I'm intrigued about how this thread has got preoccupied with kettles.

Seriously, though, the real issue is whether it is better to have agreed international (Europe-wide at least) regulations for electrical products, cars etc. To have a really competitive free trade regime, it's not enough to get rid of tariffs: often distinctive national product specification regulations can be used as a device to keep out ("unsafe") foreign competing imports. If all the kettle manufacturers, car manufacturers, etc have to produce different models to meet different national specifications, the costs are huge. Common standards agreed at EU level put a stop to this nonsense. Of course, like so much of things that have to be agreed to ensure trade is efficient, this requires rules: "agreed", in Remainspeak, "imposed" in Brexitspeak. Hardly worth dying in a ditch for.

No. Because EU standards are specifically designed to keep out competing imports from the rest of the world, EG US Chicken. Or in the case of vacuum cleaners, to protect German manufacturers from British competitors. One thing the EU does not like is free trade.

Grayfly 16th Sep 2019 05:48

As I posted earlier the objective was to improve the efficiency of design of domestic products and thus save energy.

Re the kettle, I could only find from various sources that the EU studies suggested improved energy consumption depends on:
  • Thermal mass of materials that are heated while the water is heated.
  • Heat loss from external surfaces.
  • Ability to heat a small amount of water and no more than is needed.
  • Heat input continues after the water reaches required temperature (boils) until the automatic cut-out actuates.
  • Designs that heat to a pre-set temperature and then keep the water hot.
In 2014 the EU suggested that If best practice designs become mandatory, an EU-wide saving of between 4.8 and 8.3 TWh/year by 2020.

So not long to wait to find out if it was accurate.

No wait, it hasn't happened yet and may never.

ThorMos 16th Sep 2019 06:24


Originally Posted by Dr Jekyll (Post 10570996)
No. Because EU standards are specifically designed to keep out competing imports from the rest of the world, EG US Chicken. Or in the case of vacuum cleaners, to protect German manufacturers from British competitors. One thing the EU does not like is free trade.

I work in a standards commitee together with collegues from all over europe, that still includes the UK.
The long answer to your post is: All standards are agreed between all partners. Everybody has a say, can put forward arguments and no partner has a final say... This includes (still) the UK.
The short answer to your post is: You don't have a ******* clue...

zoigberg 16th Sep 2019 07:28


Originally Posted by Dr Jekyll (Post 10570996)
No. Because EU standards are specifically designed to keep out competing imports from the rest of the world, EG US Chicken. Or in the case of vacuum cleaners, to protect German manufacturers from British competitors. One thing the EU does not like is free trade.

Well....that’s a slight bending of reality. The EU is the largest free trade block in the world. However, as with ALL reading blocks, there are non-tariff barriers to trading with that block. The more free trade you want, the more you have to comply with the regulatory barriers. In the end, we will have to comply with the regulatory requirements of any block we want to trade with...whether it is the US or the EU we will be rule takers.
James Dyson appears to have thrived making vacuum cleaners despite the terrible restrictions you talk about.

ORAC 16th Sep 2019 08:25


The EU is the largest free trade block in the world.
The EU isn’t a free trade area, it’s a single market.

The distinguishing difference between the two is that a free trade area also allows free trade with other nations outside the group. A single market sets up an external tariff wall to protect the members of the group from external competition. The EU is definitively in the second category......

Pontius Navigator 16th Sep 2019 08:42


Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt (Post 10570867)
I'd say that a quality kettle will have some quality insulation, so

​)

It is obvious that the regulation should have considered heat loss. There is another economic factor in faster boil at the work place. The longer it takes the longer a worker may loiter at the 'water cooler '.

Grayfly 16th Sep 2019 08:56

No wonder we can't move on Brexit negotiations, we can't even agree on how a kettle should work, despite the fact there is no EU law defining it, only thermodynamic laws.

Perhaps BJ and Junker will be discussing it today, then the excuse that it's taken 3 years to discuss because their kettle takes too long to make tea/coffee.

Fly Aiprt 16th Sep 2019 08:57


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 10570933)
The average circuit load will not vary. The energy (watt/hours) required to boil the water will not change.
The energy required to boil 10 million cups of tea will not change.

I'm afraitd you're not familiar with those notions of energy vs power and you did not get the point, but not a problem sir.
Britain still has got engineers who will sort that out for you ;-)

The Nip 16th Sep 2019 09:16


Originally Posted by zoigberg (Post 10571062)


Well....that’s a slight bending of reality. The EU is the largest free trade block in the world. However, as with ALL reading blocks, there are non-tariff barriers to trading with that block. The more free trade you want, the more you have to comply with the regulatory barriers. In the end, we will have to comply with the regulatory requirements of any block we want to trade with...whether it is the US or the EU we will be rule takers.
James Dyson appears to have thrived making vacuum cleaners despite the terrible restrictions you talk about.

I don't think you understand about EU Trade and the rest of the world.(neither do I fully). If you would like to make a correction to your post instead of spouting false information it would be helpful.

The EU is not a free trading block.

Fly Aiprt 16th Sep 2019 09:29


Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator (Post 10571093)
It is obvious that the regulation should have considered heat loss. There is another economic factor in faster boil at the work place. The longer it takes the longer a worker may loiter at the 'water cooler '.

;-)
The five o'clock tea institution !
It might explain why productivity is not the same on both sides of the Channel ;-)
If I read correctly, in 2018 Britain ranked 15 amid the 28
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databr.../table?lang=en

Grayfly 16th Sep 2019 09:53

Some of our UK cabinet members, like Priti Patel, know the reason for low productivity. British workers the “worst idlers in the world”, adding: “We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor.

No mention of EU kettles.

Expatrick 16th Sep 2019 09:59


Originally Posted by Grayfly (Post 10571147)
Some of our UK cabinet members, like Priti Patel, know the reason for low productivity. British workers the “worst idlers in the world”, adding: “We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor.

No mention of EU kettles.

Or as Boris Johnson wrote, back in 2013 -


If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and underinvestment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure.

WingNut60 16th Sep 2019 10:17


Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt (Post 10571104)
I'm afraitd you're not familiar with those notions of energy vs power and you did not get the point, but not a problem sir.
Britain still has got engineers who will sort that out for you ;-)

No thanks. I think I'll just stick to the international definitions.
Would you like a copy?

zoigberg 16th Sep 2019 10:19


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 10571085)
The EU isn’t a free trade area, it’s a single market.

The distinguishing difference between the two is that a free trade area also allows free trade with other nations outside the group. A single market sets up an external tariff wall to protect the members of the group from external competition. The EU is definitively in the second category......

agreed. Yes got that one wrong. It is indeed a Single Market. Free trade Within the market is the point I was trying to make.

zoigberg 16th Sep 2019 10:31


Originally Posted by The Nip (Post 10571121)


I don't think you understand about EU Trade and the rest of the world.(neither do I fully). If you would like to make a correction to your post instead of spouting false information it would be helpful.

The EU is not a free trading block.

as above. Got my terms wrong yes. Within the EU block... most definitely free trade. Outwith the block... tariffs. Both monetary and regulatory.
Unless you can agree on a FTA which will bring the regulatory ones together in order to reduce the monetary and administrative ones.
Mr Dyson still manages to sell his vacuum cleaners all around the world.



NutLoose 16th Sep 2019 10:41


Within the EU block... most definitely free trade.

agreed. Yes got that one wrong. It is indeed a Single Market. Free trade Within the market is the point I was trying to make.

noun: free trade; modifier noun: free-trade
international trade left to its natural course without tariffs, quotas, or other restrictions."an agreement intended to introduce free trade in marine products"





Well sort of, you are still limited in what you can bring back into the UK, Alcohol, Tobbaco etc, from the EU because we have a higher duty at home, so it's not really a free trade within the EU block in the sense of the term, is it?

Fly Aiprt 16th Sep 2019 10:43


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 10571168)
No thanks. I think I'll just stick to the international definitions.
Would you like a copy?

Your math demo will be much appreciated. Formulas required, though.
Demonstrating that doubling the power draw (watts) won't involve doubling the power supply capacities (watts) might earn you a Nobel prize.

It's been a good discussion, thanks for that and sorry for not staying in this expert debate.


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