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Sallyann1234 15th Sep 2019 20:26


Originally Posted by B Fraser (Post 10570780)
But both kettles will reach the same temperature. The lower wattage kettle will take longer to get there but will lose heat over a longer period.

Over a longer period, but while at a lower temperature it will lose less heat.
The heat loss is not a constant.

Grayfly 15th Sep 2019 20:34

The idea was to encourage more efficient design of domestic products which I hope the UK will still encourage efficient design on all fronts once we are out of the EU. I believe Dyson called it 'intelligent engineering'.

Fitter2 15th Sep 2019 20:37

On thermodynamics, at least I know facts and can do calculations. If a device takes longer to reach a temperature T, while losing heat to its surroundings, then the total heat loss is greater. The energy to heat the water is the same no matter what the elapsed time, Because of the heat loss (since for any given temperature the heat loss is proportional to delta T times time), a lower power heater is necessarily less efficient. Similar laws apply to vacuum cleaners. Well intended EU regulations were drawn up by lawyers, not physicists.

Quiz question - who said 'you are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts'. (unless you are Donald Trump).

West Coast 15th Sep 2019 20:42


Originally Posted by Torquetalk (Post 10570772)


That leave entitlement is comparatively low in the US (compared to Western Peer countries) suggests that in the absence of a regulatory minimum, the employee will be worse off: Not really an indicator of market negotiation on equal terms. That people are per se free to sell their labour is a sell that you donít have to buy...


No but it incentives employers to offer more PTO.

Una Due Tfc 15th Sep 2019 21:56


Originally Posted by Fareastdriver (Post 10570760)
Plus the fact you have to flush an EU toilet twice and take two runs with the vacuum cleaner to clear the dirt.

It doesn't worry EU politicians; their expenses pay for somebody to clean the toilets and vacuum the carpets.

The Chinese will be happy. They own all your new Nuclear power plants

Economics101 15th Sep 2019 22:18

I'm intrigued about how this thread has got preoccupied with kettles.

Seriously, though, the real issue is whether it is better to have agreed international (Europe-wide at least) regulations for electrical products, cars etc. To have a really competitive free trade regime, it's not enough to get rid of tariffs: often distinctive national product specification regulations can be used as a device to keep out ("unsafe") foreign competing imports. If all the kettle manufacturers, car manufacturers, etc have to produce different models to meet different national specifications, the costs are huge. Common standards agreed at EU level put a stop to this nonsense. Of course, like so much of things that have to be agreed to ensure trade is efficient, this requires rules: "agreed", in Remainspeak, "imposed" in Brexitspeak. Hardly worth dying in a ditch for.

WingNut60 15th Sep 2019 22:21


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10570784)
Over a longer period, but while at a lower temperature it will lose less heat.
The heat loss is not a constant.

Any heat loss after it has boiled is irrelevant.

The ramp up from ambient to boiling is longer and the slope more gradual.
The mean rate of heat transfer (loss) remains unchanged (I think, I'm doing this in my head).
Because the duration is longer, the nett heat loss during that period will be slightly greater and will therefore require slightly increased heat input to achieve boiling.


WingNut60 15th Sep 2019 22:29


Originally Posted by Economics101 (Post 10570851)
.........Seriously, though, the real issue is whether it is better to have agreed international (Europe-wide at least) regulations for electrical products...........

If the goal was, as mentioned in the case of the wattage limitation on the kettle, to achieve energy savings, then the answer is no. Because it fails to do so.


WingNut60 15th Sep 2019 22:32


Originally Posted by West Coast (Post 10570798)

No but it incentives employers to offer more PTO.

Doesn't seem to work too well though.

More like that it disinters long-term employees from changing jobs.

Fly Aiprt 15th Sep 2019 22:33


Originally Posted by Fitter2 (Post 10570794)
On thermodynamics, at least I know facts and can do calculations. If a device takes longer to reach a temperature T, while losing heat to its surroundings, then the total heat loss is greater. The energy to heat the water is the same no matter what the elapsed time, Because of the heat loss (since for any given temperature the heat loss is proportional to delta T times time), a lower power heater is necessarily less efficient. Similar laws apply to vacuum cleaners. Well intended EU regulations were drawn up by lawyers, not physicists.

Aha, chers amis,
Kettles and vacuum cleaners now are the Brexit's bikesheds^^!
I'd say that a quality kettle will have some quality insulation, so the above might not come into play. Of course once your out, you'll be free to make lower quality cheap kettles. Just be careful lest the Chinese produce cheaper ;-)

Now it seems something has been missed in the discussion : power.
Electrical appliances don't work with magic, but with electricity...
More powerful means more amperes and fatter wires and circuit breakers (are British home installations capable of withstanding higher power ?)

And more power means bigger alternators and power plants...which poor Britain doesn't have in sufficient number.
Brits have to import electricity from France and NL.
But of course, if really your houses are so dirty that the vacuum cleaners everybody uses in Europe won't suffice, you'll be free to import electricity (and bananas) from anywhere, Australia, India, the US...;-)



Economics101 15th Sep 2019 22:34

WingNut60: It's not just electrical products, and certainly not just what wattage is used for kettles. I was trying to make a point about common product specifications in general. My point extends to food standards.

West Coast 15th Sep 2019 22:40


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 10570865)
Doesn't seem to work too well though.

More like that it disinters long-term employees from changing jobs.


You have proof of this how?

WingNut60 15th Sep 2019 22:44


Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt (Post 10570867)
Aha, chers amis,
Kettles and vacuum cleaners now are the Brexit's bikesheds^^!
I'd say that a quality kettle will have some quality insulation, so the above might not come into play. Of course once your out, you'll be free to make lower quality cheap kettles. Just be careful lest the Chinese produce cheaper ;-)

Now it seems something has been missed in the discussion : power.
Electrical appliances don't work with magic, but with electricity...
More powerful means more amperes and fatter wires and circuit breakers (are British home installations capable of withstanding higher power ?)

And more power means bigger alternators and power plants...which poor Britain doesn't have in sufficient number.
Brits have to import electricity from France and NL.
But of course, if really your houses are so dirty that the vacuum cleaners everybody uses in Europe won't suffice, you'll be free to import electricity (and bananas) from anywhere, Australia, India, the US...;-)

Not strong on physics then Fly Aiprt?

WingNut60 15th Sep 2019 22:46


Originally Posted by West Coast (Post 10570874)



You have proof of this how?

Because you still have the vast bulk of your employees on one weeks annual leave.
Are you saying that someone already getting 3 weeks leave per year is NOT going to consider going back to one week as a disincentive to change jobs?

It's a bit like mandatory tipping incentivising work performance. Ha!

racedo 15th Sep 2019 22:48


Originally Posted by West Coast (Post 10570567)


That’s quite the range of verbal garbage aimed at the US. From charitable giving to vacation time to bathroom usage rates. You and Dre seem to have an all encompassing agenda when it comes to the US.



What you mean the pious charitable giving of stuff well overvalued you have never come across. 10 yr old cars pretty much worthless valued at $15k for tax purposes by the charity, the get the car for scrap plus £1k in cash, Pious owner gets an $16k taxes deduction.

Some people wish to publicise all their giving and wear it as a badge to make them look pillars of the community. You may of course never have come across it.

Oh UK actors etc do similar.


Your field observations border on anecdotal. If that’s the bar, then my experience is just as valid. I plan my year to never be more than 6-8 weeks from a vacation, that with a large block taken in summer. I consider myself well rested by any reasonable standard.


More than happy to trust your word. UK having a 2 week holiday in summer plus week in Feb / May / Oct is the norm to coincide with school holidays. My US friends get nothing like that.

racedo 15th Sep 2019 22:51


Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt (Post 10570581)
I'd say Britain has no qualms about finding itself a pariah ;-)

Serious now, if the social shackles are not due to the EU, what EU shackles exactly do you hope to get free from with Brexit ?
Not the euro obviously, not employment laws, not the fisheries due to UNCLOS, finally what ?

Going to be difficult enough to attract employees, try doing it with 10 days holidays.

Fly Aiprt 15th Sep 2019 22:58

Doc, lots of things in your post, thanks for that.


Originally Posted by Dr Jekyll (Post 10570678)
I didn't the say EU has a regulation demanding CE marking for appliances for the US. What I said was that we have to follow EU regulations whether we export or not.

Reading the above discussion, it appears that this is not correct. You have to follow EU regulation for the EU market.
May I remind you that you still are a member of the EU - and for an undetermined time, it seems ?


A few months back I tried to buy a new fluorescent light tube for my garage, apparently the model I needed has been made illegal by the EU. Not illegal to export, illegal full stop.
You mean, when you went to the store with your old light tube, you were told they were now unavailable ? You absolutely positive they were not just obsolete ?
The guy told you if he supplied one to you, he'd risk going to jail ? Or just that they no longer sell them ? Or they were no longer made ?


UK employers are subject to the EU working time directive, even those who don't export anywhere. We even have EU restrictions on the power of vacuum cleaners.
I got you there, sir !
Racedo explained above that once out, employers won't be able to change work laws as they see fit, due to workers' unions, not due the European Union !
As for the power of vacuum cleaners, well, didn't it occur to you that many house installations may be so obsolete that too powerful appliances may start fires ?
So many things date back to the middle ages in your country ;-)


KelvinD 15th Sep 2019 22:58

Britain may be a bit short on power plants but the main reason for that would be because of government forcing coal fired plants off line prematurely. Why did they do that? Well, partly for the moaning that has gone on for decades about emissions from them killing everything in Europe (particularly from Norway & Sweden). Meanwhile Fly Aiprt's marvellous EU still allows Germany & Poland to generate huge amounts of power by burning one of the dirtiest fuels around, lignite. In Germany, they even have a constant uprooting and re-locating of villages while they scrape it out!

Fly Aiprt 15th Sep 2019 23:02


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 10570878)
Not strong on physics then Fly Aiprt?

Beg your pardon ?

Fly Aiprt 15th Sep 2019 23:09


Originally Posted by KelvinD (Post 10570892)
Britain may be a bit short on power plants but the main reason for that would be because of government forcing coal fired plants off line prematurely. Why did they do that? Well, partly for the moaning that has gone on for decades about emissions from them killing everything in Europe (particularly from Norway & Sweden).

Yeah, Britain's short on power, but it's all evil EU's fault, how did I miss that^^?



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