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-   -   A Sickness in US Society (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/566749-sickness-us-society.html)

ORAC 27th Aug 2015 16:35

Yep, these sick shootings are all the fault of the Americans and their lack of gun control...... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

bcgallacher 27th Aug 2015 16:45

Orac - as you well know this kind of mass killing is much less frequent in other developed countries,there is no comparison. To our Australian poster - knife crime in the UK is lower than the USA also.

MG23 27th Aug 2015 17:01


Originally Posted by Tankertrashnav (Post 9097140)
Mr Chips and Lomopaseo are correct, there is probably little difference between the levels of violence in our two countries.

Not true. British people murder each other less than Americans stab each other to death.

Of course, most of those American murders are criminals killing each other, and there are states in America with lower murder rates than the UK.

Oddly enough, they're the ones with the least restrictive gun laws.

Oh, yeah, and the biggest non-terrorist mass murders in America were committed with petrol and matches. I guess British mass murderers can't afford enough petrol with their high taxes.

Lonewolf_50 27th Aug 2015 17:04


Originally Posted by bcgallacher (Post 9097037)
Up to a point I can agree with Lonewolf,what I cannot accept is linking the possession of a gun with freedom.

Understand that you don't get it. You don't need to, and as its our custom it should cause you little trouble in your green and pleasant land. Nothing further, out.

charliegolf 27th Aug 2015 17:16


charliegolf. No issues there. I'm tipping 99.9% of us intend to.
My applause was for the sharpness of the remark; and the unsaid acknowledgement that in the US, 'whack jobs' can have guns.

Edited to add:


Understand that you don't get it. You don't need to, and as its our custom it should cause you little trouble in your green and pleasant land.
It's their country- they should solve their problems as they see fit within the law.

CG

eticket 27th Aug 2015 17:38

MG23


I guess British mass murderers can't afford enough petrol with their high taxes.
You are right about mass-murder by fire.

37 people died in 1980 when someone got miffed and set fire to some petrol.

If someone is determined to kill then they will find a way to carry it out. Having a gun just saves the time and effort of taking a return taxi trip to a petrol station.

Denmark Place arson: Why people are still searching for answers 35 years on from one of the biggest mass murders in our history - Home News - UK - The Independent

Mr Chips 27th Aug 2015 18:07

If they want to do something wrong, they'll find a way to do it, guns or no guns...
Three year old shot by an air gun at the top of my road

Better examine the why, not the how

Lonewolf_50 27th Aug 2015 18:28


Originally Posted by charliegolf (Post 9097192)
unsaid acknowledgement that in the US, 'whack jobs' can have guns.

All citizens can choose to, or not. It's a right. By due process, that right can be removed if certain criteria are met. (Felony conviction, for example). That is in accordance with our Constitution, Fifth Amendment. Some of our citizens are whack jobs. You don't usually find that out until after the fact.

Your crystal ball and mine are both of little use, in reality. We don't do that Minority Report crap here. (Ref is to a movie and a Sci Fi dystopian novel).



Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

MG23 27th Aug 2015 19:03


Originally Posted by Mr Chips (Post 9097235)
Better examine the why, not the how

But that would ruin the Narrative.

MarkerInbound 27th Aug 2015 19:39


Could they amend the constitution to abolish the right to bear arms? Of course they could, they did with slavery.
We never had the "right" to own a slave. We've amended the Constitution to say it applies to all humans.

SMT Member 27th Aug 2015 19:46

Well, you did get rid of the one about not having a drink or two.

tdracer 27th Aug 2015 20:24


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 9097124)
There is absolutely NEVER an excuse for shooting another person, unless in a professional capacity, in the military; or perhaps the Police, if and only if your life is threatened. No ifs, no buts, and no maybes.

SERIOUSLY? If someone comes after you with a weapon, with the obvious intent of doing you seriously bodily harm, you don't have the right to use deadly force to defend yourself unless you're Police or Military? What the :mad: are you planning to do, hope the guy trips and falls and knocks himself out? :ugh:

Lonewolf_50 27th Aug 2015 20:26


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 9097124)
There is absolutely NEVER an excuse for shooting another person, unless in a professional capacity, in the military; or perhaps the Police, if and only if your life is threatened. No ifs, no buts, and no maybes.

Your personal (extreme) opinion is not the same thing as a fact.

It really depends on the situation.

pax britanica 27th Aug 2015 20:56

Well in general the US is a great place and has great people- 'The shining light of democracy, culture and civilisation' as the OP put it, well no I don't think so but then if you are from Australia you may not know what these words actually mean and I dont think many Americans would claim all three as exclusively theirs in any event.

The sad truth is that in most if not all developed societies there are serious problems frequently caused by people feeling failures or inadequate and having their face rubbed in it by glorification of money and a celebrity culture. That is especially true in the US where you can all too easily be classed as a winner or a loser with no middle ground. I am not making excuses for these crazies but it is something of a common factor

The sad thing for the US is that their gun culture-in some ways not unreasonable given their violent history ( Insurgency and terrorism against their British 'masters' back in the 18th century, genocide and ethnic cleansing of the native population and a very bloody civil war) puts guns at the heart of the countries development and of course the right to bear arms is enshrined in the constitution which rightly should not be easily changed.

So while some characterise it as a sickness it is more something of natural trait, Americans in general like guns, as for many it is a big part of their life. Personally I am opposed to them but I am not American and dont feel i should have any say over what goes on there- a sentiment not always reciprocated by the US Government of course who often feel they have a right to a say in what goes on everywhere.

There is also the argument that banning guns would mean law abiding gun owners would hand in theirs, Charlton Heston excepted unless he is dead now, while criminals would keep theirs , after all criminals dont obey the law in general so why would they obey that one. If I lived in Montana or Wyoming I would probably own a gun myself so it would be hypocritical to say its an American sickness until you have lived there and weighed up the pros and cons of your own situation.

So another very sad day and there will be many more , we have occasional outrages across Europe and indeed we ultra anti gun Brits (most of our Euro cousins have armed police and rural countries, France, Sweden , Spain and many others have quite high gun ownership) were home to one of the worst and most tragic of all 'massacres' in Dunblane in a primary school of all places.

So sad as it is and I am not trivialising it, inspite of a degree of 'tongue in cheekness' in this post The Brits have their Pets, The French their Cuisine, the Spanish their bullfighting and all across Europe our football and Americans have their guns. They are not going away anytime soon and I am sure many of its citizens get a bit fed up with the 'American Sickness' argument. They are either opposed to gun control and would actually like a way of fitting dual mount 0.50 cal Brownings on their car roof or are bitterly frustrated and saddened by senseless loss of life but just do not know what they can do about it , until perhaps one of the latter group really does feel so powerless and frustrated and takes out most of the NRA execs at one of their conventions with a long burst from an assault rifle. Would even that make a difference, you tell me.

obgraham 27th Aug 2015 21:24

A rather good post, Mr Pax, if I do say so myself.

Lonewolf_50 27th Aug 2015 21:35


Originally Posted by pax britanica (Post 9097382)
until perhaps one of the latter group really does feel so powerless and frustrated and takes out most of the NRA execs at one of their conventions with a long burst from an assault rifle. Would even that make a difference, you tell me.

Probably not.

Gertrude the Wombat 27th Aug 2015 22:06

We know the answers, we've been told them before time and time and time and time and time again.


(1) It's the fault of the victims for failing to take their guns with them to work to protect themselves.


(2) The odd few tens of thousands of deaths a year is a price worth paying for their god-given right to wave their willy extensions.


End of.


Until the next time.


Which won't make any difference either.

Mr Chips 27th Aug 2015 22:09

So no chance of the usual suspects talking about why rather than how?

vulcanised 27th Aug 2015 22:24

Don't encourage them.

Lonewolf_50 27th Aug 2015 22:40

Vester Flanagan, Virginia TV Killer, Vowed on Day of Firing to Make 'Headlines' - NBC News

This guy was fired, and he swore revenge. He bided his time, for about two years. He struck. It's sort of like what terrorists to, except he's the case of the disgruntled employee. The criminal has the initiative in the free society. Has always been true, since the presumption is that most citizens will be (and usually are) lawful.

It isn't against the law to be angry.
You can't arrest a man for being pissed off.
In our free society, you aren't punished for what you might do.

That is why you don't punish the millions and millions of people (like me) who own and exercise our right to bear arms and who also don't run about killing people. There is no justification for doing so in our lawful and (comparatively) free society.

Your Mileage May Vary wherever you live.


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