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Lonewolf_50 18th Oct 2017 19:18


Originally Posted by KelvinD (Post 9928929)
Lonewolf: No chip there at all.

Having read a great many of your posts on topics involving the US over the past few months, you need a course in self awareness Kelvin.


PS: in re one of your previous kvetchings about goings on in the 60's vis a vis the anti imperialism foreign policy theme, the "dismantle the imperial system" ideology (US version) was more or less framed by President Woodrow Wilson and was a key feature of the 14 Points at Versailles after WW I ... which you may find was never approved by our Senate ... but which we seem to recall your government signed up to? (Or did the UK not sign up to the Versailles treaty?)


The UN, which your country is a founding member of, and is a permanent security council member of, is and has been an agent of dismantling the imperial system and welcoming new nations into the UN. This since about 1945. Maybe you need to take a good hard look in the mirror, and maybe learn a little political history of the last 100 years.

oicur12.again 18th Oct 2017 19:46

“Inherent in compromising the standard of living in many countries is that, absent America or, for that matter, colonial rule, these countries would have substantially better living standards.”

Yes, correct in many cases particularly the countries I mentioned previously.

Ask someone from El Salvador how they feel about American trained death squads that operated in their country.

Ask the average Chilean what they thought of the US propping up Pinochet.

Or an Egyptian, or an Iranian, or . . . . . . .

And I am interested to know your opinion; did the US act with noble intent to improve the “standard of living” of Indonesians when they were training genocidal Kopassus special forces in Indonesia?

Or when they were overtly, then covertly (illegally) directly supporting the Contras in Nicaragua.

I suspect the “standard of living” deteriorates considerably when you have been murdered.

“Why isn’t Laos incapable of Western standards, are they inherently inferior?”

Your double negative notwithstanding, why would we apply “western” standards to a country in Asia reliant heavily on subsistence farming?

Why don’t they all drive Tesla cars in Laos? I don’t know the answer but I do know they would be a little closer to that “standard” had we not set them back several generations by carpet bombing them and defoliating their vegetation.

galaxy flyer 18th Oct 2017 21:05


Originally Posted by oicur12.again (Post 9929236)
“Inherent in compromising the standard of living in many countries is that, absent America or, for that matter, colonial rule, these countries would have substantially better living standards.”

Yes, correct in many cases particularly the countries I mentioned previously.

Ask someone from El Salvador how they feel about American trained death squads that operated in their country.

Ask the average Chilean what they thought of the US propping up Pinochet.

Or an Egyptian, or an Iranian, or . . . . . . .

And I am interested to know your opinion; did the US act with noble intent to improve the “standard of living” of Indonesians when they were training genocidal Kopassus special forces in Indonesia?

Or when they were overtly, then covertly (illegally) directly supporting the Contras in Nicaragua.

I suspect the “standard of living” deteriorates considerably when you have been murdered.

“Why isn’t Laos incapable of Western standards, are they inherently inferior?”

Your double negative notwithstanding, why would we apply “western” standards to a country in Asia reliant heavily on subsistence farming?

Why don’t they all drive Tesla cars in Laos? I don’t know the answer but I do know they would be a little closer to that “standard” had we not set them back several generations by carpet bombing them and defoliating their vegetation.

Depends on who one asks. Here’s Pew Global surveys over the years. El Salvaoreans like America. Our favorite restaurant is owned by Salvadorans and most CenAmer citizens want to migrate to the US, at least by the origin of illegals. Chileans I’ve met seem least pro-American, but I’ve met some who are pro, so it depends. Economically, Chile has done quite well compared to Argentina, because of or despite, the Pinochet years.

America isn’t alone in pursuing its interests, not any different than the British Empire, the present U.K., Australia, Russia or China. Would you rather have US as global cops or Russia? Why should it be different, every other nation does.

By the way, with everyone jumping off the dollar, what currency will replace it? The market is hitting records, gold off highs and the ruble crashed, perhaps the Australian dollar?

GF

obgraham 18th Oct 2017 22:04

Lonewolf:
My understanding of the Fourteen Points is a bit different. As I read it, the Allied powers all claimed they supported Wilson's views, but when it came down to working out the details in the Treaty of Versailles they abandoned his principles, especially the French, who insisted on punishing Germany. The US, of course, was a minor player in international events at that time.

If Wilson had been listened to seriously, perhaps WW2 might not have happened.

galaxy flyer 18th Oct 2017 22:24

Actually, if Gen Pershing was listened to and the German army soundly defeated IN Germany, WW 2 might not have happened as the “stabbed in the back” meme would have had no basis. OTOH, if Wilson hadn’t been full of US messianic foreign policy blather (“make the world safe for democracy”) the Germans could have walked down the tree-lined Champs Eylsees about 22 years earlier.

GF

galaxy flyer 18th Oct 2017 22:29

McCain is full of himself, but that shouldn’t surprise anyone—he’s a pro at it.

Ever since Jefferson, there has been a strain of messianic, “we are exceptional, shining city on a hill” to our policies regarding others, including our own citizens and Indians. I’m ok with Manifest Destiny and crossing the continent, but that should have stopped in 1850 with California. There was, and is, no need to go abroad in search of dragons to slay. Just make everyone knows, “f with us, and annihilation will surely follow”.

GF

SASless 18th Oct 2017 23:22


I’m ok with Manifest Destiny and crossing the continent, but that should have stopped in 1850 with California

Errrrrrrr......ahhhhhhh....how about at the western borders of Arizona and Nevada and the southern border of Oregon.

galaxy flyer 18th Oct 2017 23:25

That’s ok, too.

GF

KelvinD 19th Oct 2017 00:20

Lomapaseo: You didn't understand my earlier point to which you responded with the anti-imperialism thing. My bitch at that was the thought of being shot at, occasionally mortared and subject to what are known as IEDs (they weren't invented in the last decade or so!) by a bunch of people who had the US providing the background cheer leading. Sadly, those same toe rags to whom the US was indirectly providing tacit support were responsible for killing one of yours in Aden A sailor on a day's shore leave was killed in an attack by these same people (I don't remember all the details but I think it was a grenade). Coincidentally, or probably not, that was the last port call by the US Fleet. They did reappear in June 1967, ready to sail to Aqaba but remained anchored off and didn't come ashore.
I have no beef with the American people. The US is the country I have visited most out of all those I have visited and have always enjoyed myself there. Your governments, on the other hand, leave the rest of the world gasping at times.
Coincidentally, I have just been watching an interesting programme on TV here with the title "Trump & Russia; Sex, Spies and Scandal". If only half of the content was true, I would say Mr Trump has not got long to go in his nice big new house in Washington. The question is 'what will be his undoing?', politics or the bankruptcy courts. When you look at his alleged dealings with Bayrock, Felix Sater and one or two others, there are many questions that are just starting to be asked.

obgraham 19th Oct 2017 01:54

KelvinD:
Despite the earnest wishes of a bunch of you that some "smoking gun" will turn up resulting in the immediate dismissal of Trump, the reality is different.

The only ways he will end his time are:
1.He is impeached by the US House of Representatives (Republican majority) and convicted in the US Senate (Close, but still a Republican majority).
2.He drops dead. (You can only hope!)
3.He's killed -- that, though you might disagree, would be a crime.
4.He resigns (Trump?? -- resign?? HaHa!)
5.He gets replaced in the election to take place a bit over 3 years from now. There's not a shred of evidence that either party is mobilizing a strategy to win in 2020 with someone else.

It really doesn't matter how many BBC, Rolling Stone, or NYT expose's take place.

galaxy flyer 19th Oct 2017 02:01

And, we have President Pence who gets to nominate a V-P! Pence might just give those decrying Trump a real heart attack. He’s a real conservative, not just a raving looney without an agenda or a clue what one is.

GF

oicur12.again 19th Oct 2017 02:57

“America isn’t alone in pursuing its interests”

True, and this is the centre point to most of my argument.

America, when it invades countries like Iraq or bombs countries like Yugoslavia, is only ever acting in its own self-interest no matter how much it’s sold as humanitarian assistance or spreading democracy or preventing terrorism.

They are just the lies used to make the sale more attractive.

All countries, big and small, empire building or not only ever act when it serves their self-interest.

“Would you rather have US as global cops or Russia?”

I would rather have no one as the global cop. America is and never was a global cop “to protect and to serve”. A global mafia don is more accurate.

“….with everyone jumping off the dollar, what currency will replace it?”

Probably a basket of currencies backed by precious metals and fully convertible. IMF SDR’s are looking to join the mix. The Chinese Yuan is starting to gather pace as promised in the oil trade, a good starting point for predicting where the global economy is heading.

We live in interesting times.

SASless 19th Oct 2017 12:04

How many Countries use the US Dollar as the base for their currency or as the business currency of choice?

ORAC 19th Oct 2017 12:17


The clever trick is to carry on selling to both sides until you know who's going to win, then join in on the winning side.
The clever trick is to join in and still carry on selling to both sides....

Washingtonpost.com: Ford and GM Scrutinized for Alleged Nazi Collaboration

ORAC 19th Oct 2017 12:26


We declared War on Japan....but not Germany or Italy as you recall. Hitler declared War on us.
Actually both Japan and Germany declared war on the USA first. In the case of Japan it was the screw up decrypting and typing up the declaration before delivery which resulted in it being delivered after Pearl Harbor rather than just before.

And, yes, the USA did declare war on both Germany and Italy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United..._Germany_(1941)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...war_upon_Italy

Lonewolf_50 19th Oct 2017 14:09

@Kelvin
A comment on President Trump
He's either going to change the GOP into a hardcore conservative bloc, with no attraction to the swing voter (which does not bode well for his chances at re-election), he's going to precipitate an internal split which will set the GOP back a bit and damage them in the 2018 mid terms (which any number of representatives and Senators are doubtless worried about), or he clues up and starts to work deals better with the Congress. I won't pretend to guess which of the above happens, as each President now and again runs into problems with his party in Congress over something. That's the checks and balances thing working in its designed and clunky manner.


It was instructive to see what happened in Alabama recently, though. The candidate he endorsed lost. This opens a difficult question for President Trump: what is his endorsement worth in the 2018 mid terms? That's an open question, and one very much on the mind of whomever is running for or trying to keep their seat.


Elections have consequences. The 2018 mid terms, if they go badly for the GOP as a reaction to Trump's (so far in evidence) divisiveness, will make his ability to work with Congress more challenging.


As to 2020: it's a bit early yet. I think that 2018 is going to be like the weather vane on the top of the barn: it will show how much the political wind has shifted.

pattern_is_full 19th Oct 2017 17:31


Originally Posted by SASless (Post 9929860)
How many Countries use the US Dollar as the base for their currency or as the business currency of choice?

In day-to-day shop transactions? Exclusively US dollar - 10 (other then the US). Accepted in combination with a local currency? - 25

Not exactly economic powerhouses - Haiti, East Timor, Zimbabwe, BVI, El Salvador, Liberia, Somalia, etc.

As percent of global currency reserves? 60% (down from 70% in 1998).

twb3 19th Oct 2017 18:42


Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 (Post 9929993)
@Kelvin

Elections have consequences. The 2018 mid terms, if they go badly for the GOP as a reaction to Trump's (so far in evidence) divisiveness, will make his ability to work with Congress more challenging.

As to 2020: it's a bit early yet. I think that 2018 is going to be like the weather vane on the top of the barn: it will show how much the political wind has shifted.



Turnout numbers may be interesting. I suspect a lot of voters seeking to punish the GOP are also not fans of the left-wing hate machine that is today's Democratic party.

G-CPTN 19th Oct 2017 19:23

AIUI, China holds significant amounts of US$.

In October 2016 China's foreign exchange reserves totalled US$3.12 trillion, the lowest total since 2011, but remained higher than the foreign exchange reserves of any other nation.
Do they hold this as dollar bills (albeit of larger denominations) or is it held electronically (the way that banks record their deposits)?

lomapaseo 19th Oct 2017 21:04


Do they hold this as dollar bills (albeit of larger denominations) or is it held electronically (the way that banks record their deposits)?
IOUs work until you lose trust. After that you ask for gold bars to be moved from one vault room to another.


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