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-   -   A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it? (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/549775-usa-gun-thread-wont-controversial-will.html)

mickjoebill 7th Nov 2015 22:38


Two freelance personnel employed to serve warrents opened fire on car.
An Autistic 6 year old was killed and his father is in critical condition.
No weapon was found in car.
Body cameras recorded the incident and the two guys gave been artested.

They were off duty policemen.
Why is it so imperative for US police to pull the trigger and kill compared to police in other western countries?

Is it purely the threat of guns on the street?
What are the figures for police shootings, how often do they get it wrong?
Why do they prosecute the laws of the land, even misdemeanours, when there is such a high level of percieved threat of very shadow hiding a gunman?

In most countries if the public are at risk then car chases are called off.
In the US errant drivers are harranged and god forbid you are depressed, drunk, deaf or autistic, if you dont follow police commands it is acceptable for the police to kill you if they thought you had a partucular item.
A gun.

There are other ways to catch the bad guys, just like its use in US diplomancy the application of a big stick rarely is a long term solution.

It is a horrible flaw in US society that will not go away.
It follows that the law of "upping the anti" will apply and if portable higher firepower weapons are invented, the degree of collateral damage will increase.
We have seen heavy caliber machine guns deployed at a US street protest!

Whilst new tech such as tasers have saved lives on one hand they are casually used on public for minor levels misbehaviour rather than negotiation.

Where does this end?
Inequality and disenfranchisement are the root cause.
Solve this and US citizens will not live in fear of their neighbour.

In the meantime, the strategy that "I'll get him before he gets me" will continue to be the last bad judgement call made by a otherwise law abiding citizen before the lives of two families are forever trashed, there is no turning back the bullet once the trigger is pulled...


chuks 8th Nov 2015 04:29

I'm sure that you have ....
"We have seen heavy caliber machine guns deployed at a US street protest!"

That would probably be the Browning M2 .50-caliber (12.7-mm.) heavy machine gun, I suppose, the weapon of choice for many US police departments despite obvious problems with property damage.

Then we have this: "Inequality and disenfranchisement are the root cause.
Solve this and US citizens will not live in fear of their neighbour." That's an amazing insight!

Inequality, well ... that's an unfortunate fact of life in a capitalist society, one I don't think we can fix right away, if ever. We had had a brief love affair with Fidel Castro, who advised a different approach, but when we saw the way Cuba has solved this pesky problem, well, we decided to stick with inequality, thanks very much!

This "disenfranchisement," though ... where do you see that as a big problem? Who is being "disenfranchised" and how, and how does this lead to gun violence? Is it that the disenfranchised are protesting and then being gunned down by police using M2 Browning "heavy caliber machine guns"? Please tell us more!

bcgallacher 8th Nov 2015 08:44

Mickjoebill - you ask how many killed by US police - recent figures show over 1000 shot dead by US police per year. In a recent month 111 shot dead by police. This is more than the police force of the U.K. has killed in 100 years. Gun supporters are continually referring to US "freedom" - a couple of figures make one wonder. The US has 5% of the world population but 25% of the worlds prisoners,the police shoot dead over 1000 of the population per year,a strange kind of freedom. They say that their guns help to stop oppressive government,does not seem to have worked.

cavortingcheetah 8th Nov 2015 12:11

The Great Hunger happened in Ireland between 1845 and 1852. That gave rise to the first great immigrant inflow into the USA of at least two million Irish peasants.
The USA has been destination point of home reference for refugees, wastrels and woebegones ever since.
But then we are told, and I have no reason to doubt it, that the USA has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's prisoners locked up. So then, one might reasonably draw two conclusions?
1. Law enforcement in the USA is relatively efficient.
2. The US immigration vetting process has been a disaster.
There can be no doubt that the devisers of the second amendment were wise men who had in mind provision for the efficiency of the first of these two consequences while in no wise could they be blamed for failing to foretell the mishap of the second.

bcgallacher 8th Nov 2015 14:49

The efficient US police according to figures I have seen have a murder solution rate of 65%. The obviously inefficient British police are unable to match the killing abilities of the US police as some years they manage to shoot no-one.In spite of this they manage a murder clear up rate of 95%.

StickMonkey3 8th Nov 2015 15:20

Comparing the UK with the US is unrealistic for geographical & population distribution reasons.
A better comparison is USA and Canada
The Canadian homicide clearance rate in 2010 was 75%
(Police-reported clearance rates in Canada, 2010)

Furthermore, the vast majority of North American uncleared crime is gang-related homicides. Frankly, nobody gives a sh!t about one gang-banger killing another.

My experience in Canada is a murder clear-up rate of 100% for the last 30 years, and every one of those murderers was a relative or close family friend of the victim. My rural-dwelling friends in the USA report the same. We have no concerns.

As for the UK, its clearance rate for non-homicides is abysmal and dropping.
Given that the English Police are now to get no-notice inspections of their crime reporting, it would be reasonable to suggest that recent crime drops are at least partly due to under-recording.
Police face unannounced crime recording inspections - BBC News

The UK overall clear-up rate in 2010 was 27.8% , USA 21.7%, Canada 40%.
Again, bear in mind the geographical problems in USA and Canada.

cavortingcheetah 8th Nov 2015 15:24

The British murder clear up rate is 95% and the police are unarmed while the American murder clear up rate is 65% and police are armed?
But those who watch television programmes might be excused for thinking that it's not so much the police who solve murders but rather specialist dedicated squads of detectives. It does of course seem logical to assume that all American detectives are armed. However, since there seem to be no published statistics available to show whether British detectives are armed or not, weapon carriage and especially weapon carriage by police, is surely irrelevant to an argument as to whether armed detectives perform more efficiently in their murder rate clear up rate than do unarmed detectives.

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