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-   -   A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it? (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/549775-usa-gun-thread-wont-controversial-will.html)

Chesty Morgan 27th Dec 2014 13:18

West Coast, your expectations are simply ridiculous. Have you questioned the knowledge of everybody partaking? I did have a quick look so no lying.

The statement you seem to have a hardon about was a general statement and is, generally, correct. But like you say there are a myriad of laws...

You claim to have specific examples of laws not being enforced yet you refuse to post them. Either your claim is untrue or you won't post them because it backs up my assertions. Either way is pretty childish.


Again, support the claim with something other than an open ended statement.
Why should I? You actually supported it by informing us all that you can cite examples of it happening.

Do you now deny it's happening and are you withdrawing your claim?

West Coast 27th Dec 2014 17:32

Glad to see you're moving away from personal attacks, for the most part at least.

Asking you to support your claim may be a burden, it may provide you a challenge but it's not ridiculous in nature. If your intent is to convince readers of the accuracy of your statement, then convince readers to the accuracy of your statement with a modicum of evidence. I'm reminded of Al Sharpton and others whose cause celebre these days is police brutality. They make sweeping generalizations, yet when challenged about the veracity of the claim, they're unable to do so. If Al and his ilk were specific and provided evidence, they might get some traction. They're not, and like you, are spinning thier wheels unable to pass the starting line.

Yup, there's a myriad of laws. That's why your claim is so bold and far too generalized to be accurate given the size and complexity of the issue and of the US and its vastly differing laws and approaches to enforcement.

I've no information that backs your claim given the breadth of it. I do find it curious, and even telling that you ask me, your opposition to help you build your case. To be clear, I wouldn't be opposing you if there was evidence to support it. If you wanted to talk specifics, we could move on and find consensus, but you're sticking to your blanket assertion about the US in general leaving us at an impasse. Now, you withdraw your generalized claim (or support it) and start citing specifics and we'll move beyond the starting line.

Now it can't be a matter of laziness as you've posted ad nauseaum attacking me and defending your post but not your assertion. This leads to the conclusion you recognize your attempt to broadly categorize US enforcement of weapons laws is indefensible.

Chesty Morgan 27th Dec 2014 22:43

Your post is so full of strawmen that I thought I'd fallen into a field for a second.

You don't deny that it happens, you have proof that it does happen but now you're saying you don't and you are only opposing me because I haven't posted proof.

Are you now retracting your claim to have knowledge of specific instances of gun laws not being enforced? You're looking pretty silly.

I'm also interested in why you think we are in opposition? Oh, and you completely ignored, or can't answer, two questions I asked.

It's still happening though, even without me posting proof.

con-pilot 27th Dec 2014 23:15

What was the question again? :p

TWT 28th Dec 2014 00:17


You're looking pretty silly
He's not the only one

Pinky the pilot 28th Dec 2014 06:20

As an Aussie and a Firearms owner (Fully law abiding) I have tried to follow this thread.:confused:

Will the scorer please mark me down on the score sheet as
"Retired. Brain hurts!"

rh200 28th Dec 2014 11:01


As an Aussie and a Firearms owner (Fully law abiding)
DITO


I have tried to follow this thread
That was your first mistake, never try to make sense out of these things, there for entertainment value only.:E. It sort of a poor mans network ping pong.:p

Ogre 31st Dec 2014 00:01

Mother shot and killed by 2 year old child
 
Probably going to get flack for fanning the flames on this thread:

BBC News - US woman accidentally shot dead by son, two, in Idaho Wal-Mart

A woman has been shot and killed by her two year old child whilst shopping in Walmart, when the child went into her handbag, found her concealed firearm and caused it to discharge into his mother.

Now the implication is that the weapon was loaded and had a round chambered, the alternative is that the child cocked the weapon.

So regardless of whether the weapon was legally owned and carried, you have to wonder at the parenting skills that got to this situation.:ugh:

con-pilot 31st Dec 2014 00:34

Edmonton man kills 8 before reportedly turning gun on himself - AOL.com

Loose rivets 31st Dec 2014 01:50

I was shocked to read about the Walmart death. I just can't understand what happened unless it was a sensitive trigger and the safety was moved by the child - or it was never on. A Glock, a favorite in the US has a trigger weight that would be hard for a two year-old to overcome. Nearly three? I suppose so.

It's the other children I feel sorry for, the innocent two-year old will I hope, be protected from the trauma by skilled childcare folk.

VH-UFO 31st Dec 2014 03:26

2 year old kills mother with gun.

Nope, nothing wrong with the gun laws at all.:rolleyes:

con-pilot 31st Dec 2014 03:45

Edmonton man kills 8 before reportedly turning gun on himself - AOL.com


The victims are four adult females, two adult males and two children (a male and a female), authorities said in a statement issued Tuesday afternoon. Their identities have yet to be released.
Those tough Canadian gun laws sure stopped this from happening.

Quizling 31st Dec 2014 04:16


Those tough Canadian gun laws sure stopped this from happening.
Apparently so!


The mass killing is the worst in Alberta since at least 1879, authorities told CBS News.
Con, do you really think you are convincing anyone posting such garbage?

rh200 31st Dec 2014 04:21


Nope, nothing wrong with the gun laws at all
Its called Darwinism, get over it, unfortunately she had already breed.

obgraham 31st Dec 2014 04:25

Con's point is well taken, Quiz, and is by no means facetious. No one is suggesting that Canadian gun laws caused this.

The perpetrator was distraught, mentally unstable, disturbed, or all of the above. And he was able to come up with a gun. Despite the more restrictive laws.

Perpetrators are the cause of crimes. Not guns.

Crepello 31st Dec 2014 04:34

The Idaho case was a terrible tragedy - and so avoidable. Sadly, a tiny minority of legal firearm carriers lack the vigilance that their privilege requires. Happily, cases like this are so rare that they make international headlines.


Nope, nothing wrong with the gun laws at all.
Actually I just checked, and the laws in Idaho are fine: Open carry is permitted so, there was no requirement for the mother to conceal.

Speaking of laws, I'll be interested to see how long it takes the gun control sickos to politicize another tragedy, and demand that law-abiding Americans be rendered even more defenseless against our criminal underclass - who, it should be noted - salivate at the notion of their targets becoming sitting ducks. :mad:

pigboat 31st Dec 2014 05:21


Con, do you really think you are convincing anyone posting such garbage?
Handguns in Canada have been effectively banned from general ownership since 1935, that's coming on 80 years. If one is willing to jump through all the legal hoops handguns are still available, but handguns can be obtained through illegal means relatively easily. A long gun registry was enacted during the 1980's whereby all firearms had to be registered with the authorities. The registry was brought into being by the Liberal minister of Justice, a [email protected] whose only claim to fame was that he'd once jammed with John Lennon. We were assured the registry would be inexpensive and effective, costing 2mil to set up, whereupon it would self-sustaining via the registration fees. The registry cost 2 billion dollars to set up and is about as self-sustaining as a snowball in hell. We were told that gun crime would become a thing of the past now that the only people with firearms were the military and the police. Oh, and criminals, of course. Google the following to see just what the 2 billion dollars bought us:

Mayerthorpe four.
Constable Valerie Gignac.
Anastasia Da Sousa/Kimveer Gill

The rifle used to kill the Laval cop had been taken away from the owner by the police because he had been exhibiting strange behaviour, but was given back to him by order of a judge because due to the seizure his rights as a deer hunter had been infringed upon. You cannot make up shit like this.
From the G&M article on Constable Gignac:


In April, 1996, 51-year-old Constable André Lalonde was shot dead by the driver of a stolen car. In November, 1995, Constable Odette Pinard, was shot in the head at point-blank range as she worked at the desk of a police station. In June, 1991, Constable Yves Phaneuf, 26, was shot dead with his own service gun as he tussled with a cyclist suspected of stealing.
Gun control works a ******* treat, don't it?

VH-UFO 31st Dec 2014 05:22


Its called Darwinism, get over it, unfortunately she had already breed.
Have some balls and go and tell that to the 2yr old child who just shot their mom.


Plead the 2nd Amendment, plead that you must protect yourselves against the government, or whatever other bulls#!t excuse you come up with, so you can keep having a ball shooting those tins off the fence in your backyard with ya' buddies, so you dont feel guilty about kindy kids being shot at school or 2yr olds shooting their moms.

YEEEHAAWWWW!!!!!

Ogre 31st Dec 2014 10:01

When I posted the link to the 2 year old shooting this morning the point I was trying to get across was this:

It's one thing to have the "right" to have pistols/rifles/shotguns/firearms of any kind, but with that "right" there is also a responsibility to use them in a resposible manner. Just like so many people think it's a "right" to have a car, car ownership has a responsibility to drive it safely. If you fail to drive a car safely then you will lose that right buy having your license removed.

Gun ownership should have the same responsiblity, if you can't use it safely you should forfeit the right.

At what point do you understand that some people just can't be trusted with technology or machinery?

Mr Chips 31st Dec 2014 10:26

I truly worry about the posters on here who think that all gun incidents can be solved by laws. Do you really want to live In a world where everything, EVERYTHING, you do is controlled by a specific law?

More worryingly, do you feel you need to?

It is legal for that woman to own a gun.
It is legal for that woman to carry her gun
It is stupid for that woman to allow her child anywhere near the gun.

How exactly would you phrase a law to prohibit people from carrying guns in such a way that their child can access it and fire it?

Gertrude the Wombat 31st Dec 2014 10:45


How exactly would you phrase a law to prohibit people from carrying guns in such a way that their child can access it and fire it?
"Private citizens may not possess handguns."

There, that wasn't too difficult, was it.

But you're right, just changing laws won't hack it - the classic example is drink-driving in the UK, where what got the slaughter rate down was not the laws on their own but the concurrent culture change, as it became socially unacceptable to go around killing people whilst drunk.

Hempy 31st Dec 2014 10:53

VH, don't waste your time with logic or trying to explain the obvious.

Personally, I'm happy for Americans to keep killing themselves and each other in massive numbers. As rh200 says, it's Darwinism at work. It's quite obvious reading the 'pro' side that most of the people in that country are happy to live in a 'kill or be killed' society. Or they feel 'it is what it is'.

be rendered even more defenseless against our criminal underclass - who, it should be noted - salivate at the notion of their targets becoming sitting ducks.
^^ suggests Americans feel 'defenseless' WITH guns, even moreso without guns? Sounds like Syria..

I'm just glad I don't live there, and never will.

Mr Chips 31st Dec 2014 11:21

Gertrude, do try and pay attention at the back

"Private citizens may not possess handguns."
But they can possess handguns. I asked about a law to prevent this specific issue. Your response is to ban it for everyone.

Interesting.

bcgallacher 31st Dec 2014 11:35

Pig boat - only an idiot would think that gun controls would prevent all gun crime,what it does is reduce it considerably if enforced - have a look at gun crime in the controlled environment of the UK or Canada for example,a fraction of that in the USA. Annual gun deaths from all causes in UK about 70, In the USA - 30,000 - now even you should see the difference

Wedge 31st Dec 2014 12:24


Officials said Ms Rutledge had had a concealed weapons permit.

Tragic though this case is, it's hard not to laugh at the absurdity of that. I did.


Dear Ms Rutledge

I am happy to inform you that your Application for a Concealed Weapons Permit has been approved.

You may now take your firearm to any public place provided it is not in view.

If you feel at any time it is necessary to use it in a public place, please be careful when discharging it as guns are known to be harmful.

Yours sincerely

Peregrine Spitzberger III
State Prosecutor and Associate of the National Rifle Association.
Yes, just another sanctimonious limey expressing an opinion on an issue that doesn't concern me.

But for the avoidance of doubt, when the Founding Fathers drafted the Second Amendment, it was not done so that a Mum could take a concealed weapon with her two year old to the shops which her son could then accidentally shoot her with. That would be really silly wouldn't it? :ugh:

Fox3WheresMyBanana 31st Dec 2014 13:59

The handgun used in Edmonton was stolen 8 years ago it seems. Canada has got rid of the Long Gun Registry, but handguns were and still are required to be registered.
The killer had a criminal record dating back nearly 30 years, and was separated from the wife and children who were killed.

The suspect was known to Edmonton police. Knecht said officers had gone to the north Edmonton home twice: once this year, and once in November 2012, where a man was charged with domestic violence, sexual assault and uttering threats.
It is therefore highly unlikely that he had a Firearms Licence.

Gertrude the Wombat 31st Dec 2014 14:02


But for the avoidance of doubt, when the Founding Fathers drafted the Second Amendment, it was not done so that a Mum could take a concealed weapon with her two year old to the shops which her son could then accidentally shoot her with.
Surely thousands of lawyers have spent millions of dollars of their clients' money in courts across the land proving that you are wrong, that indeed this is exactly what the founding fathers intended.

pigboat 31st Dec 2014 15:15


Pig boat - only an idiot would think that gun controls would prevent all gun crime, what it does is reduce it considerably if enforced...
Gallacher I know that, you know that and anyone with two grams of grey matter between their ears knows that. The Canadian law was sold to the public after the Ecole Polytechnique shootings in Montreal, under the guise that massacres like the one at the Polytechnique would become a thing of the past. The law is proof, if any more positive proof were needed, that crappy politics make for even more crappy laws. There was nothing wrong with the gun laws already in place. All the new law did was make it an even bigger pain in the ass for law abiding people to obtain a firearm by creating ever more bureaucratic hoops for them to jump through, to the point where many people said screw it and threw away any guns they already had. From that point of view the law was very successful. Criminals, meanwhile, merely went on their merry way. As far as enforcement is concerned, one of the provisions of the registration law - Section13 I seem to recall - allows the police to enter your place of work or employment, without a search warrant, if they even suspect you may have an unregistered firearm.To my knowledge that has never occurred, since it so blatantly crosses the line of unreasonable search and seizure the authorities dare not take it to court lest they be thrown out on their collective asses and the gun registration law be found unconstitutional.


The suspect was known to Edmonton police. Knecht said officers had gone to the north Edmonton home twice: once this year, and once in November 2012, where a man was charged with domestic violence, sexual assault and uttering threats.
Ah yes, the old "The subject was known to police." It's become a mantra.

obgraham 31st Dec 2014 16:43


Originally Posted by sprintman (Post 8804426)
Thinkin' about this Seppo gun sickness, is it a genetic condition?

Thinkin' about this Aussie/Pommie/Euro obsession with laws in another country, is it a genetic condition?

bcgallacher 31st Dec 2014 17:07

Pigboat -If gun control laws are properly enforced they work. If you reduce the number of 'legally held' firearms it will also in time reduce the number of 'illegally held' firearms as most firearms begin as legal and then through theft or unauthorised sale end up as unlicenced in the hands of criminals.Other weapons come into the UK from eastern Europe - Makarovs and such but not I believe in any great numbers as there is a minimum sentence of 5 years for illegal possession of a handgun so the risk is really not worth it. It would appear that a large proportion of gun crime is committed here using converted replica pistols from some backstreet workshop which are probably more dangerous to the user.
The laws that are effective here cannot be applied to the USA as there are at least 300 million guns already in society which no legislation can in practical terms reduce. Americans are arming themselves to protect themselves from other Americans who have done the same. Over the last few weeks the results of a heavily armed society are apparent - dead teenagers,policemen and shopping mothers- be content that your country and mine do not suffer to the same extent. Would you not be happier and safer in a country that does not normally have armed police on the streets?

obgraham 31st Dec 2014 18:01

The fact that overall gun deaths in the USA are declining seems lost on our critics.

Toadstool 31st Dec 2014 18:53


The fact that overall gun deaths in the USA are declining seems lost on our critics.
That's cause they're all dead, killed by guns:}

G-CPTN 31st Dec 2014 19:03

What possible incentive could persuade gun-owners to give up their weapons?

Would exchanging for an equivalent value of the weight in gold swing it?

Or are the majority so determined to maintain their 'right' at any price?

bcgallacher 31st Dec 2014 19:20

Obgraham- gun deaths are declining everywhere - even in the UK where the figure is extremely low. It will be a long time before US gun deaths decline to what I would term civilised levels.

VH-UFO 31st Dec 2014 22:57

This from a news article.


A lot of people in Idaho are. Earlier this year, the state legislature passed a bill that allows people to carry concealed guns onto state university campuses.
Wow, just wow.

pigboat 1st Jan 2015 02:39


Would you not be happier and safer in a country that does not normally have armed police on the streets?
I don't know about happier, but certainly not safer. I have never lived in a country where police forces were unarmed, yet in any interaction I have had with the (armed) police I have never felt intimidated by them. I admit the current trend toward militarization of police forces in both the US and Canada scares the crap out of me, but on the other hand I believe the cops should be at least as well armed as the thugs.

obgraham 1st Jan 2015 07:33


Originally Posted by bcgallacher (Post 8804752)
Obgraham- gun deaths are declining everywhere - even in the UK where the figure is extremely low.

Sort of defeats your purpose then, BCG. Gun deaths are going down in places where there are more guns regs. Gun deaths are going down in places where gun regs are decreasing.

Ergo, gun death changes are not related to gun regs.

sitigeltfel 1st Jan 2015 08:30

Three dead and three gravely injured by a shooter who went on the rampage at a family New Year party in the Pas-de-Calais last night.
Shooter, believed to be a nurse and ex companion of one of the victims, commuted suicide afterwards.

Gertrude the Wombat 1st Jan 2015 11:05


I believe the cops should be at least as well armed as the thugs
They are in the UK. On the rare occasions (there's one going on near here right now) when the police go after a thug with a gun, the police take guns with them. But the vast majority of the time neither have guns.


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