PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Jet Blast (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast-16/)
-   -   A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it? (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/549775-usa-gun-thread-wont-controversial-will.html)

Hempy 5th Nov 2014 09:42

We're just lucky we live in a place where only the big crims have guns, crims too big to bother with a break and enter in suburbia anyway. The crims that do bother usually case the place and wait til no one is home.

I don't ever remember seeing a b&e gone bad where an (unarmed or armed) victim has been shot dead on the news..not by someone looking for tv's or jewelery anyway. It's probably happened, but I don't recall it happening.

I've never been robbed, never even seen a violent crime in the streets - unless you count drunken idiots in a punch-on. I've lived all over the country, the thought of needing to 'protect' myself with anything other than two fists has never crossed my mind.

Thank God.

Lord Spandex Masher 5th Nov 2014 09:57

“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.”
― Nelson Mandela

Earl 5th Nov 2014 10:07

Really don't see a need for this discussion after tonight's election results.
Republicans will always follow our constitution with the second amendment.
Now we need to bring the constitution into place once again.
Voters have spoken.
Done deal.
If you don't like the gun laws then leave or hang your self from tree,
Lawful gun owners do not commit crimes, just handle things, police min away when second count.
We just dont call 911, avoid the issues.

PTT 5th Nov 2014 10:12


Really don't see a need for this discussion after tonight's election results.
This may come as a shock, but there will be more elections. Neither party should rest on their laurels as this will lead to failure in the future. As such there is always a need for discussion, but there is also a need for those whose party was defeated to act in a manner appropriate to the result.

Lord Spandex Masher 5th Nov 2014 10:19


Lawful gun owners do not commit crimes,
Interesting statement Earl. Are you saying anyone who has ever owned a gun has never committed a crime?

Earl 5th Nov 2014 13:04

I will back off that and say lawful gun owners that don't keep there weapons locked up and away from kids that want to show they are some kind of bad ass and shoot up the schools is wrong.
These are the parents to blame and hurting us all.
Then the movie so called stars like Sylvester Stallone and other saying guns should be banned after they made millions of USD doing the same things in films.
We never had kids shooting up things before, so where does the blame now be placed.
As a kid we always had guns above the fireplace, shotgun in the corner, pistols in the nightstand
Yes even AK47, 12 gauge was common.
The government needs to look at whats causing this, banning guns wont solve it.
Could not ban guns even if they wanted to,Obama was the best gun salesman USA ever had, don't think they would pass a law and say guns banned, they would probably not get very far, literally ha ha.
Obama and the democrats got their face slapped many times tonight, I am sure gun control agenda was a very big part of it.
Enforce the laws on the books now, creating new laws. waste of time.

PTT 5th Nov 2014 13:38


We never had kids shooting up things before, so where does the blame now be placed.
You sure?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ndersbyage.svg
Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lonewolf_50 5th Nov 2014 13:41


Originally Posted by PTT (Post 8728841)
This may come as a shock, but there will be more elections. Neither party should rest on their laurels as this will lead to failure in the future.

The GOP in 2004 did just that, with predictably disastrous results. As for discussion, your participation is not needed. It isn't your country, and it isn't your issue.

PTT 5th Nov 2014 13:43


Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 (Post 8729065)
As for discussion, your participation is not needed. It isn't your country, and it isn't your issue.

I'll say it again: I can talk about whatever I like. Your attempt to silence me is noted and looks like nothing more than a weakness in your own argument.

Lord Spandex Masher 5th Nov 2014 14:01


Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 (Post 8729065)
The GOP in 2004 did just that, with predictably disastrous results. As for discussion, your participation is not needed. It isn't your country, and it isn't your issue.

You could always try to stop him...

galaxy flyer 5th Nov 2014 14:23

PTT,

NOTE. Those curves have trended down annually after the bilge around 1990. The most violent drug wars faded and huge increase in "shall issue" gun licensing states.

GF

PTT 5th Nov 2014 14:27

GF - The point in contention was whether or not "we never had kids shooting up things before". Looks to me like you guys did.
Whether the reduction in homicide rates had anything to do with gun law is neither provable nor pertinent to that point.

galaxy flyer 5th Nov 2014 15:11

More gun licenses, that is more lawful guns, less homicides is just as valid as the claim of more guns, more deaths by guns. Very on point. Yes. We shot 'em for years , in fact since 1775 in Concord.

GF

rgbrock1 5th Nov 2014 15:14

gf wrote:


We shot 'em for years , in fact since 1775 in Concord.
Bwwaaaaa haaaaaa haaaaa. gotta love it. :ok:

PTT 5th Nov 2014 15:19


Originally Posted by galaxy flyer (Post 8729165)
More gun licenses, that is more lawful guns, less homicides is just as valid as the claim of more guns, more deaths by guns.

Both are correlations, neither is a causation.

Very on point.
I'm sure it's on a point, just not the point actually being made.

BenThere 5th Nov 2014 15:41

Here's a succinct rundown on how NRA endorsed candidates fared in the US midterms yesterday.

Second Amendment Crushes Gun Control Candidates in Midterm Elections

Lonewolf_50 5th Nov 2014 15:49

LSM/PTT:
you opinions on this matter aren't worth the cow turds on the bottom of a farmer's boots. You are better off spending your mental energies on something that is wrong, or that you perceive that is wrong, in your country.

rgbrock1 5th Nov 2014 15:52

LW50 wrote:


cow turds on the bottom of a farmer's boots
Yippy-yi-yeah, cow paddies. :}:E

BenThere 5th Nov 2014 15:58

Actually I support anybody's right to post on any thread they want.

I wonder often, though, why non-US citizens and residents expend so much time, thought, and energy on the US gun threads that appear with regularity on Prune. And every one of those threads will have posts declaring that the poster is glad he doesn't live here, or that he doesn't need or want a gun.

It's good to not need or want a gun, especially if you can't have one. More power to you.

PTT 5th Nov 2014 16:12

Lonewolf_50 - thanks for the concern, but I'll spend my mental energy as see fit.

BenThere - because it's interesting. The discussion has already highlighted to me a fundamental difference in how we value life, which has itself helped me understand what appears to be, to me at least, a fundamental cultural difference.

BOING 5th Nov 2014 16:16

There is no advantage provided by fear, it clouds your judgement, slows your reaction time and erodes your resolve.

Respect for a threat is an advantage which encourages the use of sound judgement, fear debilitates.

You cannot succeed if you carry fear with you. Bravery is when you discard it.

Fear of death is pointless since Death will find you wherever you hide at whatever time it chooses. The strong desire live is not contradicted by this viewpoint.

An enemy is confused by lack of fear since he assumes your actions are driven by a strength he cannot see, they are.

------

Dushan 5th Nov 2014 16:19


Originally Posted by PTT (Post 8729241)
BenThere - because it's interesting. The discussion has already highlighted to me a fundamental difference in how we value life, which has itself helped me understand what appears to be, to me at least, a fundamental cultural difference.

So you value the perp's life more than lives of your immediate family's and yours. We don't.

Now what?

Lord Spandex Masher 5th Nov 2014 16:20


Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 (Post 8729215)
LSM/PTT:
you opinions on this matter aren't worth the cow turds on the bottom of a farmer's boots. You are better off spending your mental energies on something that is wrong, or that you perceive that is wrong, in your country.

I'm actually better off doing what I want to do. Thanks for the advice though.

BOING 5th Nov 2014 16:22

Lonewolf
Please do not denigrate cow turds. Their remains provide fertilizer for fresh growth, they are useful.:)

.

Lord Spandex Masher 5th Nov 2014 16:23

Boing, have you ever seen a stress/arousal bell curve?

PTT 5th Nov 2014 16:29


Originally Posted by Dushan (Post 8729251)
So you value the perp's life more than lives of your immediate family's and yours. We don't.

Now what?

False dilemma: it's not an either/or argument.

I value the lives of my family over the intruder's, but I value the intruder's life more than you do.

BOING

You cannot succeed if you carry fear with you. Bravery is when you discard it.
Bravery is when you overcome fear, not discard it.

I've been in many situations when I have been scared, and not been scared in situations when, in retrospect, I should have been. The fear has helped most of the time, and it is certainly braver to go into a situation with fear than with ignorance.

Dushan 5th Nov 2014 16:34


Originally Posted by PTT (Post 8729270)
False dilemma: it's not an either/or argument.

I value the lives of my family over the intruder's, but I value the intruder's life more than you do.

OK, now what?

PTT 5th Nov 2014 16:37

Dushan - Now we can move away from discussing the differences between our societies which mean you are far more likely to have a gun and back to the topic of how to reduce the carnage. I am, of course, assuming you do want to reduce the carnage.

Thing is, I know full well that there is no measure you would be willing to accept which would do that :rolleyes:

brickhistory 5th Nov 2014 16:44


but I value the intruder's life more than you do.
Why?

...........................

rgbrock1 5th Nov 2014 16:51

PTT:

You value the life of the intruder's? Interesting. I wonder if Dr. William Petit of Cheshire, CT would have thought that as the "intruders" broke into his home, in July of 2007, raped his wife and sexually abused his two young daughers, murdered them all and then set fire to his house, just to make sure? Should we have valued the life of the two intruders? (The people of the State of CT obviously didn't value their lives too much as both have been sentenced to death.)

Dr. Petit did live though. After being beaten to within an inch of his life with a baseball bat as he laid on the couch. Funny thing he said, though, after waking from his coma "I wish to God I had had the foresight to have armed myself before all this happened."

Be that as it may, no intruder would ever escape my home unscathed. And that's not bravado speaking, but plain fact.

Dushan 5th Nov 2014 16:55

PTT, you call it carnage, I call it acceptable risk. If you want to reduce the sheer numbers, then I think we can agree on something. Let's enforce the existing laws, prosecute the criminals to full extent of the law, no parole, no bail, increase the certainty and speed of execution of death penalty, for starters. IOW, let's not concentrate on how we can make the lives of law abiding gun owners more difficult and invent new rules that they need to follow and abide by, which they would. Let's concentrate on the criminal element and eliminate it (as they break through the door, if need be).

Agree?

BOING 5th Nov 2014 17:00

LSM

Never had any use for one. Do they come in colours or just basic bronze?

Charts are OK but they will never replace reality. It's the guy off the chart you have to worry about.

PTT 5th Nov 2014 17:01


Originally Posted by brickhistory (Post 8729290)
Why?

Because he's a human being.

rgbrock1 - As discussed already, that's more likely to happen over there than over here, possibly due to that same low value on human life. I pity that chap and, were I living in your country, I might well choose to arm myself. Being ex-mil I flatter myself that I would train and store the weapon properly through choice rather than through legal requirement, much as you chaps say you do, and that I would use my judgement to decide when to discharge it (as opposed to simply using "all available force").
That training and storage requirement is all I've suggested could be mandated, though.

Dushan - It's the level of acceptability on which we disagree. I can go with that enforcement option if you can accept that any miscarriages of justice will have to be rectified by HUGE payouts. You'd also best hope you never get caught up in such a miscarriage.

Toadstool 5th Nov 2014 17:10


PTT, you call it carnage, I call it acceptable risk. If you want to reduce the sheer numbers, then I think we can agree on something. Let's enforce the existing laws, prosecute the criminals to full extent of the law, no parole, no bail, increase the certainty and speed of execution of death penalty, for starters. IOW, let's not concentrate on how we can make the lives of law abiding gun owners more difficult and invent new rules that they need to follow and abide by, which they would. Let's concentrate on the criminal element and eliminate it (as they break through the door, if need be).

Agree?
Dushan, while I wouldn't be so blasé as calling the death of thousands of my own citizens as an acceptable risk, I think what you have said sounds good.

I would go further though. Like you I wouldn't be in favour of introducing more rules and more checks because there enough of those. I would however prosecute those who transgress to the full extent of the law. This would also entail those, who by their own negligence/lack of training/lack of security, are responsible for the death of others. So, should a kid get hold of a gun under the pillow and shoot another, the gun owner is also responsible and, if death occurs, should be prosecuted for manslaughter.

BOING 5th Nov 2014 17:35

Toadstool

I would go further though. Like you I wouldn't be in favour of introducing more rules and more checks because there enough of those. I would however prosecute those who transgress to the full extent of the law. This would also entail those, who by their own negligence/lack of training/lack of security, are responsible for the death of others. So, should a kid get hold of a gun under the pillow and shoot another, the gun owner is also responsible and, if death occurs, should be prosecuted for manslaughter.
That is quite possibly the most intelligent and constructive comment from your side of the Atlantic that has been made in this thread.
Congratulations. The famous Scottish pragmatism wins again.

.

BenThere 5th Nov 2014 17:36

No problem with that. It's like owning a Pit Bull.

PTT 5th Nov 2014 17:56

So you would be responsible for the deaths caused by guns you own? Seems reasonable, but what if the gun is stolen and someone kills with it? Would both parties be liable? How do you trace a gun owner without registration?

brickhistory 5th Nov 2014 18:00


Because he's a human being.
No human being deserves to have his/her life taken under no circumstances?

Not trying to make the question overly broad.

But am curious as to when, if ever, taking life is permissible to you?

Dushan 5th Nov 2014 18:02

Why would you be responsible for guns that were stolen from you? You are responsible for safe storage, not secure storage. If your guns were stolen and used in a crime how can you be liable?


There you go again, with nanny state-isms.

mixture 5th Nov 2014 18:19


No human being deserves to have his/her life taken under no circumstances?
Given that the USA is the only "western" country that still imposes the death-penalty, I suspect you're on your own there ..... :cool:

In many respects, life in jail is a harsher penalty than simply killing a human being.


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:24.


Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.