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-   -   A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it? (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/549775-usa-gun-thread-wont-controversial-will.html)

con-pilot 29th Oct 2014 19:07

Naw, I think I'll start a popcorn thread. :p

White popcorn popped the old fashion way is the best.

Lord Spandex Masher 29th Oct 2014 19:07


Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 (Post 8719565)
Another lie from you, LSM.
I don't "leave live weapons lying around."
LSM, does it give you joy to spread falsehoods?

If it's a lie you should be able to prove that I know you don't leave live weapons lying around. But you can't. Your incessant claims of lies is all a bit playground.

If you don't leave live weapons lying around the my comments are obviously not aimed at you so what are you getting all uppity for?

Lonewolf_50 29th Oct 2014 19:10


Originally Posted by Lord Spandex Masher (Post 8719593)
If it's a lie you should be able to prove that I know you don't leave live weapons lying around. But you can't. Your incessant claims of lies is all a bit playground.

You made the assertion.
Notice the word "you" in the post.
Willfully done, not accidentally done.

Stop with the lies and you won't get called on them.

If you want to ensure a third person intent in your message, use the third person form.
Since you already know how to speak and write in English very well, you already know that.
Ergo, willful.

Lord Spandex Masher 29th Oct 2014 19:12

Yes, but you can't prove that I know that you don't, which I don't, so you can't. While you're looking up the definition of occasionally you should check out lie as well :ok:

rgbrock1 29th Oct 2014 19:13

LSM wrote:


Yes, but you can't prove that I know that you don't, which I don't, so you can't.
Eh? For some reason the lenses of my glasses just exploded when I read that. Thanks.

con-pilot 29th Oct 2014 19:17

Aw don't bother Wolf, he still doesn't know the difference between the front of the bus and the back of the bus. :p

victor tango 29th Oct 2014 19:28

Oh come on chaps, lets calm down a bit..........
Its the only thread where the moderators are in bunkers with tin hats on ;)

Lord Spandex Masher 29th Oct 2014 19:29


Originally Posted by rgbrock1 (Post 8719606)
LSM wrote:



Eh? For some reason the lenses of my glasses just exploded when I read that. Thanks.

Yeah but I know what I meant. :p

bcgallacher 29th Oct 2014 19:39

Governments make laws for different reasons but as far as UK gun control laws are concerned you will find few dissenters. We like the freedom not to worry where our hands are when stopped by the traffic police. The police officer has the freedom not to worry that whoever he stops for a traffic offence is armed. We have the freedom not to worry that when our children go to a friends house that one of the parents has left a loaded weapon with the safety off lying on the coffee table. We have the freedom not to worry that our children will be shot in the classroom by some demented gunman. We have the freedom not to worry that a disgruntled ex workmate will come to our place of work and attempt to shoot whoever annoyed him.
We have had 1 school massacre in the UK in the 70 years I have been around - in the US it is now about 1 a month.You have around 50 to 70 police officers shot dead each year - It is several years since we had a police officer shot dead in the UK. Do you not think that there is something wrong that about 250 of your citizens are admitted to A&E with gunshot wounds each day - many of them children? It appears that you have become callous and blind to the human misery that is caused. Has it not occurred to you that you are acquiring firearms to protect yourself from your fellow citizens who are acquiring them for the same reason? In this country as in yours there are many responsible gun owners but recognising that not all gun owners would be responsible people there has to be a system that reduces the chances of guns falling into the hands of the wrong people - the system we have is not perfect but it is better than most and does not ban gun ownership except in the case of hand guns - a small price to pay.

Dushan 29th Oct 2014 19:46


Originally Posted by bcgallacher (Post 8719643)
- the system we have is not perfect but it is better than most and does not ban gun ownership except in the case of hand guns - a small price to pay.

And toddy's smugness award goes to: bcgallacher along with honourable mention for admitting that he is paying a price...

Krystal n chips 29th Oct 2014 19:47

For those on here with the attention span of "limited capacity", this will doubtless prove too taxing.

For the rest of us, it makes for a sobering and insightful read.

The gun safety campaigners who don't mention guns | US news | The Guardian

PTT 29th Oct 2014 19:54


Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 (Post 8719544)
That doesn't apply here, since the vast majority of those who own firearms DON'T commit crimes with them.

You'll also note that we have rules, like, convicted felons are by law not permitted to own firearms. (In some states, the right can be restored via a formal appeal/process, etc, which is a bit like a licensing process ... and as such, reserved as a requirement for those who have already demonstrated a behavior of felonious behavior.)

PTT, not even a nice try on that one.

You might want to reread what I said:
those who most want guns are those who should be least allowed to have them
That's not the same thing as "most who want guns should not be allowed to have them, making your first sentence something of a non sequitur.

Yes, you have some rules. They are all retrospective rather than preventative, though.

Dushan 29th Oct 2014 19:56


Originally Posted by Krystal n chips (Post 8719658)
For those on here with the attention span of "limited capacity", this will doubtless prove too taxing.

For the rest of us, it makes for a sobering and insightful read.

The gun safety campaigners who don't mention guns | US news | The Guardian

Gee a politician with a hidden agenda. Who could have seen this one coming from the lefties?

brickhistory 29th Oct 2014 19:57


For the rest of us, it makes for a sobering and insightful read.

However skewed to present a "reasonable" anti-gun bias.

I am sorry for the father in that story.

I wish they would go ahead and convict and execute his son's murderer.

My firearms and I had nothing to do with this tragedy.

Your inferred solution, at least from this article, is that everyone should be punished for the crimes of a few.

I'm agin that philosophy.

For wings folded


So stop posting such as:

Quote:


Your mileage may vary.

Except in Europe where the government's got your back.
Why must I stop? Again, a Euro telling me what I should do. Not to mention that simply pointing out the general philosophy of Western Europe when it comes to government ensuring the safety of the individual as compared to America doesn't seem to be out of line.

Not to mention that I will return rhetorical fire each and every time one anti-gun European pops off with spurious examples of how their beliefs are correct and working as advertised for them. Even when easily verifiable facts show differently. Facts are merely inconvenient to such.

Much like our U.S. Constitution.

But I don't tell them that they are wrong or should change their ways. Not my place to do so.

Now on page 23 of this US gun thread.

Still on page 3 of the Vienna one.

Curious...

rgbrock1 29th Oct 2014 20:00

PTT wrote:


Yes, you have some rules. They are all retrospective rather than preventative, though.
So, tell me how you prevent thug A from gunning down thug B in an inner-city neighborhood. By outlawing the use of firearms by anyone and everyone?

Wrong answer. Thug A and Thug B will find other ways of securing firearms.

Taking firearms out of the hands of law-abiding citizens, leaving said firearms only in the hands of the criminal element, does the former no justice whatsoever. And leaves them wholly at the mercy of the latter.

Lonewolf_50 29th Oct 2014 20:11

Why do you assume people are guilty when they have committed no crime, PTT?
Minority Report, no thanks. (Ref is a sci fi story and a movie)

Seldomfitforpurpose 29th Oct 2014 20:20


Originally Posted by rgbrock1 (Post 8719693)
PTT wrote:



So, tell me how you prevent thug A from gunning down thug B in an inner-city neighborhood. By outlawing the use of firearms by anyone and everyone?

Wrong answer. Thug A and Thug B will find other ways of securing firearms.

Taking firearms out of the hands of law-abiding citizens, leaving said firearms only in the hands of the criminal element, does the former no justice whatsoever. And leaves them wholly at the mercy of the latter.


In the politest possible terms you are simply asking the wrong question.


Forget Thugs A and B, that is another totally different debate.


The question you should be asking is how do you prevent GOOD Guy A from shooting GOOD guy B?


No Gun control of any kind will prevent Thugs killing Thugs or even Thugs killing GOOD Guys but what could be done to STOP GOOD Guys killing each other?


There is your conundrum, forget muddying the waters with BAD guys and concentrate on keeping the GOOD guys alive.

brickhistory 29th Oct 2014 20:20

Will K&C be willing to read this?

Alabama rights flap indicative of problem in gun community - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com


The Examiner is a pretty right-leaning news outlet and the article is about competing pro-gun measures in Alabama.

But there is an agenda within it, just as in the link he provided and thought "sobering and thought provoking."

Seemingly if you were already of that mind-set, it reinforced your thinking.

Lonewolf_50 29th Oct 2014 20:24

SFFP, it's not a conundrum, except maybe to you.
You overstate the alleged problem.

Seldomfitforpurpose 29th Oct 2014 20:29


Originally Posted by brickhistory (Post 8719687)
Your inferred solution, at least from this article, is that everyone should be punished for the crimes of a few.

I'm agin that philosophy.


What are your thoughts on Motoring Laws and the like?


Should we do away with Speed Restrictions simply because a few folk cant handle their cars on the freeway?


Should we do away with the DUI rules simply because a few folk cant handle a beer or two?


Perhaps we should do away with a driving test.........


Just a thought

PTT 29th Oct 2014 20:29

rgbrock1

Taking firearms out of the hands of law-abiding citizens, leaving said firearms only in the hands of the criminal element, does the former no justice whatsoever. And leaves them wholly at the mercy of the latter.
Where have I suggested taking firearms away from anyone? I was simply talking about the different philosophies on our sides of the pond. On your side you are more scared of the criminals who already have guns; on our side we are more scared of everyone having guns. Chicken Little all round ;)

Lonewolf_50

Why do you assume people are guilty when they have committed no crime, PTT?
Minority Report, no thanks. (Ref is a sci fi story and a movie)
Who does that? It's a restriction on the individual for the protection of the majority, and we're happy with that for the same reason we are happy with speed limits. It's not seen as a punishment over here to not be able to own guns, we simply don't want them in our society: it's the norm.
Love Philip K. Dick, read most of his stuff :ok:

Lonewolf_50 29th Oct 2014 20:32


Originally Posted by PTT (Post 8719742)
Lonewolf_50Who does that? It's a restriction on the individual for the protection of the majority, and we're happy with that for the same reason we are happy with speed limits. It's not seen as a punishment over here to not be able to own guns, we simply don't want them in our society: it's the norm.

And we value freedom. Might be why we parted ways with your lot a few centuries ago. ;)

Love Philip K. Dick, read most of his stuff :ok:
He's pretty good. :ok:

Seldomfitforpurpose 29th Oct 2014 20:32


Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 (Post 8719735)
SFFP, it's not a conundrum, except maybe to you.
You overstate the alleged problem.


So there is no problem with GOOD Guys shooting GOOD Guys.....................riiiiiiiight :eek:

Lonewolf_50 29th Oct 2014 20:36

SFFP:
I see another bubble wrapper from across the pond.
What zero defects efforts have your lot ever put in place that worked?
Why do you think we need to try one?

Here's a "good guy" shooting a "good guy" scenario:
Hunting accident.
A few happen every year. (A well publicized one was VP Cheney shooting a lawyer in the face, but nobody died during that one. There is some belief that a few beers were involved, but the details remain out on that ranch in Sarita ... )
Accidental shooting.
Not a reason to outlaw hunting.

Your approach would be to bubble wrap that as well.
No thanks, you can keep that attitude on your side of the pond.

wings folded 29th Oct 2014 20:40

brick.

It is quite simple. You have a legal regime in your country regarding access to guns. Other countries have different regimes.

I have never, never put forward the view that we in Europe could nor should dictate to you Americans how to run your lives.

The quid pro quo is that you desist from your critique of European stances.

So if you think I am a European telling you what to do, you are hugely mistaken and have not read my posts carefully.


Do as you please in America, it is your country, you run it the way you want.

If you want to pour scorn on the way things are run in Europe, you have every right so to do. That just makes you an American telling Europeans what to do. Is that more meritorious than a "Euro" telling you what to do?

Just for clarity, do in America what seems best for you.

Seldomfitforpurpose 29th Oct 2014 20:42


Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 (Post 8719753)
SFFP:
I see another bubble wrapper from across the pond.
What zero defects efforts have your lot ever put in place that worked?
Why do you think we need to try one?

Here's a "good guy" shooting a "good guy" scenario:
Hunting accident.
A few happen every year. (A well publicized one was VP Cheney shooting a lawyer in the face, but nobody died during that one. There is some belief that a few beers were involved, but the details remain out on that ranch in Sarita ... )
Accidental shooting.
Not a reason to outlaw hunting.

Your approach would be to bubble wrap that as well.
No thanks, you can keep that attitude on your side of the pond.


Errrr, where did I suggest that in this or any other thread?


Go on chap, have a look :ok:

BenThere 29th Oct 2014 20:58


On your side you are more scared of the criminals who already have guns; on our side we are more scared of everyone having guns
'Scared of' isn't accurate as a term to describe home-defending Americans in general. 'Resistant to' would be more like it.

My attitude is more akin to , "C'mon, Motherf*cker, step into my house, and I'll do my best make sure you'll wish you hadn't."

John Hill 29th Oct 2014 21:37


Originally Posted by BenThere
My attitude is more akin to , "C'mon, Motherf*cker, step into my house, and I'll do my best make sure you'll wish you hadn't."

You sound like you would like nothing better than sending some sap to the promised land. It must be so frustrating for you having spent all that money on the tools but never being able to use them.:ooh:

BenThere 29th Oct 2014 21:40

You're so easily misled, JH.

The whole idea of having them is so that I'll never have a need for them and have to use them. But if I do...

KBPsen 29th Oct 2014 21:44


we value freedom.
How exactly is it that you are free if you feel you need a gun?


But if I do...
I can't help but think that you go to bed slightly disappointed every night.

brickhistory 29th Oct 2014 21:47


You sound like you would like nothing better than sending some sap to the
promised land.
Is that a bad thing?

If it's a case of the good guy, Ben, vs. a bad guy, it's not a tough call to make.

With prayers, he'll never be in that position.

With preparation, he can survive if he is.

Boy Scout rules...

Mr Chips 29th Oct 2014 21:48


It is several years since we had a police officer shot dead in the UK.
Two years actually, two officers shot dead in September 2012


The police officer has the freedom not to worry that whoever he stops for a traffic offence is armed

Policeman shot while confronting suspect in Welling
A police constable has been shot while confronting a man suspected of drinking and driving in south-east London.

Officers were called to reports of a car hitting other vehicles on Westwood Lane, in Welling, on Friday night. The driver was then seen leaving the scene.

When police stopped a man matching his description, he produced a revolver and shot the PC in the hand, the Met said.
4 October 2014


We have the freedom not to worry that when our children go to a friends house that one of the parents has left a loaded weapon with the safety off lying on the coffee table

Shereka Fab-Ann Marsh, 15, was hit by a bullet from a counterfeit 1930s Italian Beretta pistol in the bedroom of a house in Hackney in March.

In September, the 15-year-old boy, who cannot be named, was cleared by an Old Bailey jury of her murder but found guilty of manslaughter and possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life.

Judge Charles Wide said it was plain from the evidence that he had been pointing the gun at Shereka in other to "frighten" her and that his possession of the gun and ammunition were in the context of "violent gang confrontation".
March 2014

PTT 29th Oct 2014 21:49

Lonewolf_50 - maybe it is. I don't think you have quite as much freedom as you seem to make out, though: you are still severely restricted by your laws in what you can and cannot do, even in those things you have freedom guaranteed to you by your constitution. That's not a critique, it's simply a fact: I think it was you who said earlier that you can't carry a halberd around the place despite the fact it is an "arm" which the 2nd would appear (to me) to allow you to bear.

BenThere

'Scared of' isn't accurate as a term to describe home-defending Americans in general. 'Resistant to' would be more like it.
Pot-ay-to, pot-ah-to. We're "resistant to" people being shot in general (criminal, accident, suicide, whatever) but implement that resistance by different means. That's not a criticism of your method, simply an indication of the different approaches.

bcgallacher 29th Oct 2014 21:53

Dushan - I note your comment - there is no smugness about it, unless it is smug to be pleased that we do not shoot our fellow citizens in any great number.As far as price paid - in my case nothing as,like most of my fellow citizens I have never owned or wanted to own a handgun. In case you think I am not familiar with firearms I have received training on Mk4 Lee Enfield , Bren gun and Martini actioned target rifle. This in the UK. In the USA I received training - from a USMC instructor in handguns including 44 Mag Desert Eagle, 1911 45, numerous 9mm including Makarov. also trained to use H&K MP5K - with and without suppressor. A lot of fun but not worth the lives lost.

Seldomfitforpurpose 29th Oct 2014 22:01


Originally Posted by bcgallacher (Post 8719864)
.As far as price paid - in my case nothing as,like most of my fellow citizens I have never owned or wanted to own a handgun.


I seem to recall it was only around 50,000 folk who were directly affected by the UK Hand Gun ban, well less than 1% of the entire UK Population.

bcgallacher 29th Oct 2014 22:02

Mr Chips - as I stated the controls we have are not perfect but they help to reduce the death toll - one child shot dead compared to 8 a day in the US, one police officer shot in the hand compared to 50 dead and more wounded in the US. Since our last police fatal shooting there have been over 100 dead officers in the US - which do you prefer?I am sure the families of the dead officers and children would give you an answer.

Mr Chips 29th Oct 2014 22:05

You made assertions that were factually wrong

Three families and a copper with a bandaged hand probably don't care about statistics, just deaths (and a bullet)

Just try not to make any more factually inaccurate posts....

Lord Spandex Masher 29th Oct 2014 22:10

Ah Mr Anally Retentive is here ;)

Mr Chips 29th Oct 2014 22:14


Ah Mr Anally Retentive is here
Pleased to meet you Mr Anally Retentive, I'm Mr "please don't make up lies when debating on Jetblast"

Lord Spandex Masher 29th Oct 2014 22:14

How else do you lie without making it up?


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