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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

sisemen 19th Feb 2012 15:50

War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original
 
Well, not quite. But politically they've "gone over the top" and open warfare has now been effectively declared between Gillard, the PM, and Rudd, the ex PM. This present government has but a very very short time to run - possibly as little as one week.

Unfortunately, because of a ruling by the mods we are not allowed any discussion or input in what is likely to be a momentous few weeks in Australian history ranking alongside the sacking of Gough Whitlam as PM by the Governor General.

That this moment in history will eventuate in a ripping asunder of one of the main political parties and is likely to change the political face of Australia for many, many years to come is undeniable. It will also probably have a great deal of influence in how we run politics in the future. It is a seminal moment.

However, we can't discuss it.

We can discuss European, American, South African, British, Swedish, Russian, Chinese and sundry other political set ups on their hamsterwheels but not Australia.

What other country in the world got rid of a Prime Minister whilst in office, supplanted that PM with his deputy (and the first woman PM in Australia), then decided that she wasn't cutting the mustard and now appears to want the previous PM back. What message does this send to the rest of the world, and in particular Asia - our region, about the system here?

I have no doubt that I will receive a 'telling off' from the mods and be made to stand in the naughty corner again but as they say....."same old Sisemen". However, I would urge them to change their mind and let this thread stand :{

Storminnorm 19th Feb 2012 15:55

Can I just add that a Country usually gets the Politicians
it deserves.

probes 19th Feb 2012 15:57

- not so sure actually. I's terribly slow to change a system, especially if the ones you want to get rid of are on top positions.
What would the best possible (less worse?) outcome for Australia be?

sisemen 19th Feb 2012 16:13


What would the best possible (less worse?) outcome for Australia be?
The Governor General, as The Queen's Representative, should announce that the government has lost the support of the people and a general election announced.

The continued internecine fighting that is going on at the moment is not doing the country any good.

It is making the place effectively ungovernable.

It will rip the Labor party asunder and it will not recover from that situation for a very long time and that is not healthy for democracy or good governance.

The people of Australia are sick to the back teeth of the fighting and want an input into who runs the country.

So, therefore, an election declared this week or next should mitigate the effects of the in-fighting and will stop the uncertainty. It will also solve the problem of a minority government which patently hasn't worked.

I'm not saying that an alternative Coalition Government would be any better in the short term but at least it breaks this present impasse.

G-CPTN 19th Feb 2012 16:17


It will also solve the problem of a minority government which patently hasn't worked.
How can you be sure that an election now will have a different result than last time?

sisemen 19th Feb 2012 16:30

No-one can be sure but the polls - which have been pretty much consistent over the past 10 - 12 months - indicate a clear cut result.

probes 19th Feb 2012 16:33

Well, but often the problem is - everyone struggling to power have just bulging pockets of their own in their mind?

lomapaseo 19th Feb 2012 16:40


What would the best possible (less worse?) outcome for Australia be? .
Australia should revert back to its revered status as a penal colony and accept all non-english speaking immigrants from its mother country the UK

yotty 19th Feb 2012 16:45

Would an elected president make things better or worse?:confused:

JB Mods 19th Feb 2012 17:02


because of a ruling by the mods we are not allowed any discussion

We can discuss European, American, South African, British, Swedish, Russian, Chinese and sundry other political set ups on their hamsterwheels but not Australia.

You are of course being somewhat disingenuous here sisemen, because you know full well that there is a very good reason that Australian politics discussions have been banned in here for a long time. It is because such discussions invariably go totally off the rails in a very short time and end up with a raging war between people who have proved themselves incapable of having reasoned discussion and insist on using personal attacks and insults.

However ............... let's just try one more time (THE LAST TIME) to see if you can all behave like sensible human beings.

Go ahead.

Canardly 19th Feb 2012 17:21

My only (short) time in Australia was at the peak of the Hawke/Keating power change. As I recall, the press reports were full of "He said....". "I never promised....." etc.

Is it only the ALP that have these tiffs about who should be next to lead & fcuk up the Country? :confused:

Checkboard 19th Feb 2012 17:45


What other country in the world got rid of a Prime Minister whilst in office, supplanted that PM with his deputy (and the first woman PM in Australia), then decided that she wasn't cutting the mustard and now appears to want the previous PM back. What message does this send to the rest of the world, and in particular Asia - our region, about the system here?
It shows few people understand the system, as "the country" has no say over who is PM - that is purely a party decision for the party which has enough votes in the lower house to form a government (or in some cases, the Governor-General ;) ). So "the country" didn't get rid of the last one, nor will have any say in whether or not he returns before the next general election.

flying lid 19th Feb 2012 17:58

It's all about power and money.

The buggers in charge NEVER have enough of either. Age old problem.

Shoot em !!

Lid

Slasher 19th Feb 2012 18:22

Mods letting Aussies rant about politics without letting 'em be
Aussies. Well let's see -


What message does this send to the rest of the world, and in
particular Asia - our region, about the system here?
Can answer that in one sentence Sise - the higher powers in
SE Asia regard ALP Oz pollies as a bunch of mindless fcukwits
full stop.

Goodness gracious unROE me I can't say that now can I! :=

Ok I'll rephrase....the higher offices of government within the
SE Asia region regard the governing politicians of Australia as
a group of people who do not give proper forethought to their
actions due to their ineptitude brought on by their possession
of a lower intellectual collective handicap which is comparable
to the mental capabilities of an interactive partner during the
orgasmic phase of a sexual encounter. No further comment by
this writer is warranted as forthcoming and ends at this point.

Fliegenmong 19th Feb 2012 21:12

"It is because such discussions invariably go totally off the rails in a very short time and end up with a raging war between people who have proved themselves incapable of having reasoned discussion and insist on using personal attacks and insults."

Must be me then ....... :suspect:

Bring on the Man in the Hat!!!! :ok:

Worrals in the wilds 19th Feb 2012 21:43

It will be interesting to see how the numbers fall. Personally I don't think Kevvy's got them, but I wouldn't put money on it. :ooh:

Of the two, I still prefer Gillard; Rudd is such an obvious egomaniacal 'win at any cost' type, and he's been very disloyal by (allegedly, but the dogs have been barking loudly) leaking like a sieve to any journo who will listen.

His campaign has had nothing to do with the good of Australia or even the ALP, rather it's about the good of Kev. Once a dirker, always a dirker. Now we've got two dirkers. :uhoh:

Lucky little Vegemites, aren't we. :} At least they're annoying the hell out of Bligh in Qld, anyway. Every cloud has a silver lining. :E

TZ350 19th Feb 2012 21:57

[quote] loma paseo
Australia should revert back to its revered status as a penal colony and accept all non-english speaking immigrants from its mother country the UK [quote]

They would feel right at home, right in the centre of the country ........

The Aussies could ship their non-english speaking immigrants in as well......:E

The politicos should have learnt after watching the degeneration of the UK into Britistan. Saying that, I feel for the real Australians who are the real victims of the political clusterfcuk.

Sir George Cayley 19th Feb 2012 22:06

So, has the political battle caused Air Australia to go bust or did the collapse cause the political turmoil?

Sorry, just keeping an aviation content in here to keep the Mods happy.:=

SGC

Worrals in the wilds 19th Feb 2012 22:17

No, they created that mess all by themselves. :rolleyes:
Like the famous line from Casablanca; Round up the usual suspects. :E

Worrals in the wilds 19th Feb 2012 22:52


You might remember the leadership fights in the Liberals between Andrew Peacock and John Howard which ended up with John Howard as Liberal leader.
Sure. The Libs have been proudly knifing each other in public for decades, but Labor are usually a bit quieter about it and do their leadership spills behind closed doors. This one's been very open, with a lot of obvious leaks from both sides. Maybe the new Social Media has something to do with it. Strange times, anyway.

sisemen 20th Feb 2012 00:09


let's just try one more time (THE LAST TIME) to see if you can all behave like sensible human beings
Thank you. Hopefully everyone (and I include myself :O) will heed those words.

Buster Hyman 20th Feb 2012 00:27

I'll just add my 2c before the inevitable lock happens...


It shows few people understand the system, as "the country" has no say over who is PM - that is purely a party decision for the party which has enough votes in the lower house to form a government (or in some cases, the Governor-General http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/wink2.gif ). So "the country" didn't get rid of the last one, nor will have any say in whether or not he returns before the next general election.
Indeed. Ignorance is bliss. In fact, this is why I won't vote for a Republic. If we are to have one foisted upon us, lets get one where we actually have a say. Sure, there'll be a bunch of Nancies putting their hands up for the gig, but if you play the party line each time you vote, you'll know who your "team" has endorsed.

I don't vote for Gillard, or Abbott, or Katter! I vote for the numpty that gets put forward in my electorate. He/She will then elect a leader for the country, if they win office. Personally, if I vote for my local numpty, AND a leader for the country, then the Republic will have my vote. Until then...:=

CoodaShooda 20th Feb 2012 00:45


and the good of the country seems to be a very distant second to the good of KR.
and to the good of JG?

Labor, federally, seems to have achieved the level of disfunctionality that the Libs displayed at state level for the past decade and which kept labor firmly at the helms of the states. And look where that's now got labor in most states, other than Vic.

Let's presume that Gillard holds a spill in caucus and wins. What happens to Rudd? Does he go to the backbench and continue to undermine her? Does he stay on as Minister for Foreign Affairs and continue to undermine her? Or does he resign from Parliament, triggering a by-election that the LNP has a chance of winning and changing the balance in Parliament?

If Rudd wins, what does Gillard do? Back to Education? Backbench? Resign?
Labor would probably have a better chance of holding her seat if it went to a by-election, something which might count in Rudd's favour when caucus members are thinking about their own future prospects .

And what if caucus brought in a compromise candidate? What do Rudd and Gillard do? Stand up and applaud him/her and provide full and unquestioned support? Somehow, I don't think so.

Regardless of the outcome of the leadership dispute, it has only served to distract commentators from the fact that it's labor's overall performance and policy direction that has driven the loss of electoral support.

Once the dust settles on who is to be in the drivers seat of this inevitable train wreck, the underlying problems and the instabilityremain.

Is being in Government, particularly a minority government in thrall to the water melons, the best place to be when you are trying to sort out who you are and what you are doing? Possibly not. (Definitely not if you believe in providing sound government rather than simply holding power to satisfy your ego.)

Australia does best when we have a moderate socialist party balanced by a moderate conservative party.

At present neither party can be described by their detractors as being moderate.

It therefore appears inevitable that we will be experiencing rapid changes in government and a degree of social turmoil until one or other party sorts themselves out.

Labor is pursuing a political line that has been discredited both here and in the UK.

The libs are far from perfect but are demonstrating greater electoral appeal at present.

Taking the long view, it would be better for labor to ditch both Rudd and Gillard and rethink their direction. And the safest place to do this is in opposition, while watching the flaws in the liberal lineup expose themselves.

But it ain't going to happen while the egos rule.

CoodaShooda 20th Feb 2012 03:17


Time for WA to secede while the deckchairs in Canberra get rearranged yet again
Only if you take the NT with you.

Buster Hyman 20th Feb 2012 05:04

I had a conversation with someone the other day that was all about abolishing the States. It surprised me that they didn't know that the Feds exist because the States decided it was a good idea.

I wonder how hard it would be to pull out of the Commonwealth? (Won't happen here of course)

Worrals in the wilds 20th Feb 2012 05:39


Time for WA to secede while the deckchairs in Canberra get rearranged yet again
Only if you take the NT with you.
Queensland has been secretly working on it since Federation... You guys want to join in? :E:}

sisemen 20th Feb 2012 06:58

That's the last thing that Gillard wants right now - another gaffe.

Hopefully they were talking about canning the government and having an election; at least that way their disrespect would be worth something.

dat581 20th Feb 2012 07:05


WITW the rest of the country would be in a bit of trouble if they weren't subisdised by WA and QLD
How ironic, NSW and Victoria have been subsidising Qld and WA since federation until the start of the mining boom. :hmm:

Fliegenmong 20th Feb 2012 10:00

You can take back all your Ex Sydneysiders if that is what you meant....and those from parts further South! :}

The 2 headed Apple Islanders can stay, they're always good for a laugh! :uhoh:

CoodaShooda 20th Feb 2012 12:40


You guys want to join in?
Back in the 90's we were staging a genuine attempt to achieve statehood.

Our then Chief Minister, later to become President of the Liberal Party, succeeded in killing it off.

Which was sad, really, because a few months before the move went to the people, I'd managed to convince an enthusiastic labor member that the Chief's strategy was to gain statehood and then secede. Territories are tied to the Commonwealth; States aren't.

The story went that, ultimately, the Chief saw himself as President for Life.

If you knew the size of the Chief's ego, the story became eminently believable.

I had quite a few weeks of wry amusement hearing my rumour come back to me from a growing number of labor faithful. Then the bugger showed his true colours and stuffed the referendum. :{

I think the only way we'll achieve state sovereignty now is for the states to dissolve the federation and for us to claim our borders as our own.

But then we'll probably have WA, SA and Qld fight over who gets which bits and take us back to the days of being controlled from southern capitals. :ugh::mad:

Slasher 20th Feb 2012 18:12

http://www.picamatic.com/show/2012/0...70_730x894.jpg

Fliegenmong 20th Feb 2012 21:09

When I hear Kevvy say Jools has my 100% backing....like Tone did for Mal we'll know it's on :E

Seldomfitforpurpose 20th Feb 2012 21:34


Originally Posted by TZ350 (Post 7037724)
Saying that, I feel for the real Australians who are the real victims of the political clusterfcuk.

Quite correct, the Aboriginal populace have suffered greatly over the years.

sea oxen 20th Feb 2012 23:02

SFFP

Not for want of money.

When I lived there, I was quite involved in politics. What a complete and utter fscking waste of time and energy that was.

I do not blame Gillard, nor do I blame Rudd, much in the same way as I do not blame the pigeons who eat the fresh vomit on the streets of a morning. It's what they do.

John Howard failed to deliver reforms to prevent this situation arising. He was a William McMahon clone. I was delirious when he won his first election, but after a little while, I hoped he'd do a Harold Holt.

SO

Lex Talionis 21st Feb 2012 00:51


I had a conversation with someone the other day that was all about abolishing the States
Interesting idea and I wonder how much we would save by abolishing the duplications and inefficiencies we have by operating Government on both a State and Federal level.
Imagine how many less politicians we would need for a start?
I'm not suggesting that we get rid of the States but the State Government apparatus and while I'm at it why not get rid of local council as well.

The libs are far from perfect but are demonstrating greater electoral appeal at present.
Easily achieved when you don't have to actually do anything except so 'NO' to everything the incumbent Government does.

The opposition only has to exist so it's only natural that they look good because they have not done anything to upset the applecart or produce anything.
Still,when you think about Tony Abbott has still managed to makes more gaffes than Mr Bean.

Quite correct, the Aboriginal populace have suffered greatly over the years.
I agree with Sea Oxen as successive Governments of both sides have taken the easy and politically expedient and popular path and throw money at the problem than any real attempt to solve the problem.The problem is that like most complex issues it is a multi faceted obstacle.

If you just give a group of people a lot of money then what incentive is there for them to be interested in education and a career.Like the cliche if you give someone a fish and you will feed them for a day but give them a fishing line and show them how to fish and they will eat for the rest of their lives.

Worrals in the wilds 21st Feb 2012 00:52

It seems a pity not to acknowledge the meme of the week (okay, the meme of last week, I'm into retro :O) so here goes...
No personal attacks and there's one for everyone :). Displayed order = number of seats in the federal House of Reps. (and yes I've already seen the flogging a dead horse version :}).
http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL163.../401154817.jpg

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL163.../401154816.jpg

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL163.../401154815.jpg

;)

tinpis 21st Feb 2012 01:50


if you give someone a fish and you will feed them for a day but give them a fishing line and show them how to fish and they will eat for the rest of their lives.
Not necessarily the case up here.
You give someone a football and they will play for a day. Give them a fishing line and and they will go fishing when not playing football for the rest of their lives.

Rollingthunder 21st Feb 2012 02:15

http://resources1.news.com.au/images...mbing-1942.jpg

Darwin 1942

Brian Abraham 21st Feb 2012 02:39

Worrals, you forgot the people really running the place - greens, and perhaps independents.

Pinky the pilot 21st Feb 2012 03:01


Worrals, you forgot the people really running the place - greens, and perhaps independents
I suspect that she's working on that Brian. Should be a good one too.:ok:

As to what will happen over the coming weeks; A repeat of the events of November 11th 1975 perhaps?:hmm:


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