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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

500N 31st Jul 2012 22:19

I am dismayed at this - sending our warships and troops to do their job.

I am not fully up to speed on SAR areas of responsibility except that each country has their own area, Australia's being huge.

WTF is the point of this if we now need to do the Indonesians job for them in their area ?

I think it is a case of the Indo's don't want to do it if it involves Asylum seekers
but would do it if it involves a commercial ship.

Would we not be better off giving them a few ships and training a crew or two ? We have done it with their Anti Terrorist squad (with the US), Detachment 88 and that was from nothing.

I just did a quick search, the Indo's build their own small Navy craft so they have the ability.

We don't need to send Warships, we need to send large boats that can easily take on board others. The warships can then be used for what they are supposed to be used for.

The quicker we get someone in Gov't who makes some hard decisions, the better.


Andu 31st Jul 2012 22:23

It's an old Indonesian tradition called "taking the piss of the village idiot as far as he'll allow the piss to be taken out of him", 500N.

They've identified a prize village idiot and are enjoying themselves immensely.

Look on the bright side - after the Libs get in, if this agreement is in place, our Navy might be able to take the boats back close to Java "legally".

500N 31st Jul 2012 22:40


Yes, good point.

Our ships tow the boat back into an Indonesian Habour !!!

We have enough Very high cost Specialist troops and Police over in Indonesia as it is doing various things (as said in my post above).

We are stretched as it is without adding the Navy to it.

eagle 86 1st Aug 2012 00:26

Keep ignoring him!

Andu 1st Aug 2012 05:23

Three boats today (and we've got another nine hours to midnight). One boat reached Cocos Island undetected, and a number of pax from that boat swam ashore.

Doesn't augur well for the rest of the month, (unless your name is Sarah HansonHyphen).

Also, to counter the problems the Australian Government has had with imprisoning underage crewmembers on the people smugglers' boats, according to a caller into Sydney's 2GB, (who said his source was a crewmember on one of the Navy patrol boats employed on (choke!) border protection), passengers on these boats are offloaded - and (you couldn't make this up!!) - the crews with their boats are sent back to Java(!)

For the next load of country shoppers? The same crew will be running a daily morning and afternoon service.

500N 1st Aug 2012 05:38

In the article I read about the new Navy agreement with Indonesia,
it said that since the beginning of the year, 101 boats and 6600 people
have landed in Australia.

101 Boats !!!

How many of those got to our shores without being detected ?

This country is going to the dogs.

SOPS 1st Aug 2012 05:52

101 boats!!!! So just how many policy failures is that Juliar???:mad::mad:

500N 1st Aug 2012 05:59

Here is the full article from THE AUSTRALIAN. I notice they have now upgraded the total at the bottom since I read this at about 9.00am !!!!
Libs demand strict rules on boat aid deal with Jakarta
  • by: Lanai Vasek
  • August 01, 2012 3:21PM

THE Coalition says Australia will be running a "beach to beach water taxi service" for people-smugglers if a deal to allow the navy free access to Indonesian waters goes ahead without strict conditions.

Australia and Indonesia are reportedly close to signing an agreement that would allow the Australian navy into Indonesian waters without permission to conduct search and rescue operations if an asylum-seeker vessel is in distress.
The Gillard government has yet to confirm the agreement, with Treasurer Wayne Swan saying: “These will be matters that will be outlined when these matters are concluded.”
Opposition immigration spokesman Scott Morrison told The Australian he had no problem with such an agreement as long as Australia was only used as the first point of call in “exceptional circumstances”.
Strict conditions should also be placed upon any deal, such as any asylum-seekers picked up in operations in Indonesian waters being returned to Jakarta.

“We always welcome discussions with Indonesia and working together with Indonesia on these issues but I don't want to see the navy's water taxi service running beach to beach between Indonesia and Australia,” Mr Morrison said.
“I don't have a problem with it necessarily but Indonesia would obviously need to retain responsibility as first responder and coordinator in search and rescue operations, certainly in their own waters and certainly within the search and rescue zone.
“But any arrangement here would have to clarify that anyone picked up in this situation and rescued in this situation, whether it is in Indonesian waters or in their search and rescue zone, would need to go back to Indonesia because otherwise you are running a water taxi service from beach to beach for people-smugglers and that is not an acceptable outcome.”
In the past year hundreds of asylum-seekers have drowned off the coast of Java on their way to Australia.
Indonesia's defence minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro told the ABC he expected a deal to be signed to allow Australian boats free rein of Indonesian waters as early as next month.
“So Australia's asking us when their patrol boats can enter our waters, what are the rules that apply,” Mr Purnomo told the ABC.
“So far they have doing that, but actually they're doing it without rules protecting them. They worry that our radar would be catching them, either the air defence system or the maritime radar.”
News of the pending deal came as another two asylum-seeker boats were intercepted in Australian waters.

In July a total of 32 boats were intercepted in 31, the highest monthly figure on record.

Overnight a boat with 28 asylum-seekers was intercepted followed by another vessel with 43 passengers and two crew.

The arrivals take this year's to 103 boats carrying 6987 asylum-seekers and 164 crew.

Clare Prop 1st Aug 2012 09:07

What is the definition of "Indonesian Waters" in this context?

Coastal waters, territorial sea, contiguous zone, EEZ, which?

allan907 1st Aug 2012 09:16

Anything below high water mark. And if it's been raining and the runway is wet then I think that arriving aircraft doorway also counts.

MattGray 1st Aug 2012 09:52

I wonder if any of the true blue believers expressing angst over boat people ever consider it might have been a good idea if Abbott and Co had supported the Oakeshott bill eh? :confused:

At the time some of the more sensible Libs thought so. Lib MP Dr Mal Washer called on Tony Abbott to consider supporting Labor's Malaysia Solution. But said he didn't want to cross the floor on the issue, declaring he didn't want to "vote against one idiot over another in a dumb and dumber competition''.

But of course it wouldn't have suited the Liberals Machiavellian strategy to ensure the asylum seeker issue remains alive and unresolved until the next election. More boats = more votes for the Libs and too bad if a few of them sink and lives are lost in the process.

Afterwards of course the hypocrisy reached stratospheric levels as the Greens were made the whipping boy with endless bleating over them having no mandate yada yada etc.

They did what they did because they could. End of.

Just as "Never ever" Johnny did with the GST.

EffohX 1st Aug 2012 10:55

some of the more sensible Libs thought so. Lib MP Dr Mal Washer
Dr Mal Washer... on a scale of" Dry Libs" to "Wet Libs, Dr Mal (there's that name again) Washer could be classified as off scale in the "absolutely drenched" category, right up there in the outfield alongside Malcolm Turnbull as a Liberal who can be guaranteed to always - but always - come out with sodden wet policy that would be totally acceptable to Labor.

Give us all abreak, Matt. With this latest "development"(!) of the RAN being "allowed, unhindered" into Indonesian waters to collect the country shoppers from the end of the wharf, surely even a True Believer like youself is finding supporting the Gillard "government"(!) a bit like pushing sh1t uphill with a very pointy stick.

parabellum 1st Aug 2012 11:10

More boats = more votes for the Libs and too bad if a few of them sink and lives are lost in the process.

No it doesn't, exactly the opposite, all the arrived boat people will vote labour, a vote for Labour equals a vote for welfare, a vote for The Coalition equals get off your arse and do something useful, sign up in the armed forces, maybe?

The suggested agreement between Australia and Indonesia could actually give the RAN the powers they need to turn back the boats; well armed boarding party boards boat, anyone not part of the boarding party moved to a non vital area of the boat and kept under armed guard. Boat now towed back into Indonesian coastal water, Gemini or similar craft take over tow and complete it to a port or shallow beach area, boarding party now disable boat engine by removing vital parts but not destroying it, boarding party return to mother ship. It could be done if there is a will, do the ALP have it?

500N 1st Aug 2012 11:28


That is a good point. Not sure a Zodiac / Gemini's could tow the boats
but the RIB's certainly could.

Not sure the Indonesians would like your way of thinking though
as I think they are expecting the RAN to take them to Christmas Island.

(Or you could give the the thrill of a lifetime, hook it up to the back
of the Patrol Boat and open her up. Deliver who ever is left back to shore.)

What is the betting that once the agreement is signed, the phone calls
from Asylum Seekers will originate closer to Indonesia / Java ?

SOPS 1st Aug 2012 11:34

THe phone calls will come direct from the Java Sheraton. I mean why even bother getting wet.:mad:;)

parabellum 1st Aug 2012 11:46

If, big IF, the RAN were to follow my suggested procedure then I can imagine the Indonesians sceaming 'foul' after only a couple of successful returns, the corruption is huge and goes a long way up the tree, possibly to the top, so cutting off a big supply train will not be popular.

(Or you could give the the thrill of a lifetime, hook it up to the back
of the Patrol Boat and open her up. Deliver who ever is left back to shore.)

Like this?


RJM 1st Aug 2012 13:34

Tonight, the treasurer Wayne Swan, as our acting prime minister, builds a speech around Bruce Springsteen's 'economic philosophy' as expressed in his songs in support of his continued arttack on Gina Rinehart, Twiggy Forrest and Clive Palmer - part of Swan's atrtempt to define Labour values. Rineharet, Forrest and Palmer are wealthy, highly productive Australians who employ thousands of people and who are not breaking the law.

Yet Swan regrets 'not going hard enough' in criticising them.

Unbelievable. What can you say, other than 'let this be Swan's swan song'.

SOPS 1st Aug 2012 14:02

Sorry RJM to ask this, but have you been into the cooking sherry? (I am overseas so not up with this), but are you saying that Swan is basing a speech, attacking some fellow Australians based on the songs of Bruce Springsteen? To prove you have not been into the sherry please arrange these words into a sentence...plot, lost, totally, have, they, the.

allan907 1st Aug 2012 14:33

Unfortunately SOPS 'tis true. Welcome to the whacky world of dysfunctional ALP "government". They don't seem to be able to help themselves despite the previous bad press for earlier ventures into the realm of pop culture. They haven't yet realised that it's minus one point on the opinion polls everytime they do something like that.

SOPS 1st Aug 2012 14:58

All I can say is "Please God (wich ever God you do or dont believe in) give us an election":confused:

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