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Stanwell 11th Mar 2015 14:34

Congratulations, Fubaar.
You've taken this discussion to another level.
Look forward to your further contributions. :ugh:

Stanwell 11th Mar 2015 14:52

With all due respect - and deference to your personal experience, your post indicates that you're not really looking at the BIG picture.

Power tussles, vested interests, well-meaning city huggy-fluffs, lack of cultural awareness and political agendas...
They all contribute to the mess that's been allowed to go on for way too long now.

A positive and sensitive contribution (tempered by a bit of experience) would be welcome.

Any ideas?
Please let's know.

Ovation 11th Mar 2015 20:37

I've heard directly from from a worker in indigenous health that the RFDS is also described as the šboriginal taxi service". When a family living in a "lifestyle"" settlement wants to go to the big smoke, they feign a medical condition (generally using a child) and the whole family pile aboard with the patient for the trip to hospital and back.

He used his own aircraft to deliver his medical services, and was extremely reluctant to stay overnight at any remote lifestyle settlements for fear of vandalism and fuel theft.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was 11th Mar 2015 21:03

The BIG picture is that life has moved on from the stone age.

I realise all the issues that have caused and still contribute to the situation. However, we can go down the huggy-fluff route of providing a group of people with a cotton wool fenced reservation system where the state provides for all of their needs (outside of cultural), and which creates a dependancy mindset, yet more feelings of exclusion and social inequality, and no hope for the future. It also just entrenches all of the issues that cause the ongoing problems we have today. Or, the harsh reality can be faced, and you move forward. At the end of the day, all welfare and goverment services are paid for by somebody. As long as those somebodies are prepared to keep paying, then the status quo can remain. The trouble is is that there is an "industry" deeply committed to making sure that that status quo is sacrosanct. The reaction to the PM stating the obvious (with a bad metaphor l'll admit) is proof of that.
Equality works both ways.

PinkusDickus 11th Mar 2015 22:42

The trouble is is that there is an "industry" deeply committed to making sure that that status quo is sacrosanct.
touchť T_I_E_W

The welfare industry is dependent upon a continuation of the miserable state of existence for many indigenous Australians, and while it exists they have a job. These so called "servants of the public" don't have to endure the conditions themselves, but rather sit in a comfortable office in Canberra (or elsewhere) fat, dumb and happy. It's only those unselfish individuals committed to improving indigenous welfare that work at the coal face.

Purely on an economic basis, the cost of delivering the service would eat an enormous slice of the pie, while the actual delivery is inefficent and misdirected, mishandled and more than likely, misappropriated. The indigenous welfare spend is more than double that of mainstream spend, and there are some facts and figures here:
Rivers of money flow into the sand

If you are concerned about where this is all heading, I urge you to read the report in full, but here are some pertinent excerpts:

Most indigenous funding is for the 75,000 indigenous Australians in remote communities. When allocated across to these remote indigenous Australians, government expenditure is more than $100,000 per person per year—$400,000 per family of four. In three years, this amounts to more than $1 million per family. For such sums an indigenous family could pay rent in Toorak or Vaucluse and send its children to a posh private school.

Current welfare to individuals and communities debilitates their capacity to take decisions and use their initiative. People who used to be responsible for their lives now sit under trees, play cards, and wait for “the government” to provide. Millions of dollars are on offer, except to resolve unaddressed land ownership issues and measures such as long-term leases for home ownership.

The excuse that “fixing indigenous problems is too hard” is used as an excuse for lack of progress. But we know that a mix of communal and private property rights and private enterprise delivers prosperity in mainstream Australia. And we know that no society in the world has achieved prosperity without these. Introducing private property rights side-by-side with communal property rights, mainstream education, enforcing the same civic standards as in the rest of Australia and reducing excessive welfare would rescue remote communities. It would also be far cheaper than continuing to fund existing failed policies.

Emeritus Professor Helen Hughes is a senior fellow at the Centre for Independent Studies and Mark Hughes is an independent researcher

MTOW 11th Mar 2015 23:34

The trouble is is that there is an "industry" deeply committed to making sure that that status quo is sacrosanct.
Much like the equally horrible situation in Africa today, this one sentence completely explains the hopeless situation many if not most indigenous Australians endure today.

I'd love to say it was a case of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", but the cynic in me cannot allow that. Too many, from the mandarins right down to the mere 'spear carriers' in the Aboriginal Welfare INDUSTRY (for that's what it is) know exactly what they're perpetuating. They want to keep their jobs - and climb the promotion tree right to retirement - and that career path will only remain available while the "poor unfortunate noble savages" remain just that.

Everyone* - particularly the Aborigines - would benefit enormously if the government dropped all the reverse discrimination enjoyed by anyone declaring him or herself as Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander and every citizen in this nation was treated exactly the same.

* (Everyone except those with burgeoning careers in the Aboriginal Industry and the MANY, some of them blond haired and blue eyed, who have stumbled upon a nice little earner by milking the system for all it's worth. The absolute rubbish we endure from these "professional victims" who have very little Aboriginal blood should be ditched immediately. If there was some disadvantage rather than advantage to declaring oneself as Aboriginal, 99% of these people would be denying their Aboriginality.)

Traffic_Is_Er_Was 11th Mar 2015 23:53

Another issue is that traditional Aboriginal culture (at least the bits I saw of it in Arnhem Land where they try to live as traditionally as possible, and have really only been exposed to the west for 70 or so years) and western culture are not that compatible. We foster a work ethic, where you are expected to go to the coal face for your allotted hours, exchange your labour/time/knowledge for monetary compensation and then provide for yourself, while trying to better your circumstances. For a semi-nomadic hunter-gatherer, the tribe does enough to survive and that's it. Anything else is a waste of valuable energy. After you gain enough food and shelter to get you through the day, you sit down and talk or sing or paint but you conserve your energy because there may not be a meal or shelter tomorrow. You're not tilling fields, building structures, husbanding livestock because you don't have to. It's not the way you're wired. Now if that meal and shelter is nowadays gained without much effort on your behalf, then that doesn't leave much else to do. You can sit under a tree and talk and sing and paint all day! You and I looking around the township/camp will see a lot of things that need doing, but not them. They just don't see things that way. And if, for the last 40 or 50 years, someone else has always come along and done those things for them, why would their attitudes change?
it's very hard to change 40000 years of programming basically overnight.

Pinky the pilot 12th Mar 2015 02:11

Cooda and Fubaar; Very funny!!:D And I knew someone would come up with those two places!!:=

Well.... Canberra anyway.:O

Stanwell 12th Mar 2015 02:47

Spot on! :ok:

Compare that with the prevailing attitude in our society...
"I don't know where I'm going - but if I don't hurry, I'll be late."

Stanwell 12th Mar 2015 03:21

Re your post #16735..

I've had a bit to do with the RFDS on the operations side.
That second-hand story about the "Aboriginal taxi-service" is, putting it politely, at best, disingenuous.
A better word to describe it, I think, starts with 'B' and ends with 'T'.

You are casting aspersions on the professionalism of the Service. :=

MTOW 12th Mar 2015 04:27

Stanwell, rein in the mock outrage. It's not just the RFDS that is abused. Many years ago now, during a long running air traffic controller's strike - (anyone else here old enough to remember how many of those we used to endure year on?) - I was called out on a medevac to Broken Hill (RAAF Herc) to bring a seriously ill (white, Anglo Saxon and very much of the squattocracy class) woman to Sydney for urgent medical treatment. It was around Easter, when the Royal Agricultural Society held a grand ball in Sydney as part of the Royal Easter Show and much enjoyed by the toffee country folk.

Long story short: the seriously ill lady walked off the aircraft at Richmond fully made up and with her ball gown in a carry bag over her shoulder and I very much suspect that the suit bag carried by the 'concerned hubby' contained a tuxedo. Needless to say, we were pretty pissed off to see this, but when we told the boss, all he did was shrug his shoulders. Apparently, it wasn't the first time he'd seen something similar.

Another example of your taxes at work. I have to say that that incident pissed me off far more than any example I later encountered with Aboriginals rorting the system, as those very wealthy people (they were station owners out of Broken Hill) should have known better, but were utterly shameless and made little attempt to disguise what they were doing.

Stanwell 12th Mar 2015 04:52

Fair comment, MTOW.

Two negative aspects of this issue are apparent:
1. The attitude of a number of Aboriginals.. "You owe me, whitey!".
2. "We just HAVE to get to that Ball - Do you know WHO I am? and, Do you have any idea of how much I've paid in taxes over the years?"

rh200 12th Mar 2015 07:03

The aborigines are no different to any other human being on the planet. The fact is, integration is about forcing functions, Its just math.

If the forcing function is weak comparable to what you have, then it won't be solved, we have the same problem with various other ethnic groups since we have all gone huggy fluffy.

There has to be a balanced approach utilising both the proverbial stick and carrot.

MTOW 12th Mar 2015 08:19

This may be apocryphal, but whether that's the case or not, I believe there is some truth to the urban myth(?) that the failure of integration/assimilation (and therefore, the 'success' of multiculturalism?) can be seen in any suburb in France (and perhaps, equally in Australia?) with a high percentage of migrants from Arabic countries by noting the direction the satellite dishes in most homes are pointing.

Many, if not most, are pointing to pick up the Arabic satellite channels rather than the local satellite services. People can (and many do) come to the West and remain almost wholly enmeshed in the culture they left. Except when they pick up their Centrelink payments.

This clip, from Adelaide, is worth watching.
Farah 4 Kidz - Today Tonight Adelaide

Edited to add that I understand that the opposite is the case in many North African homes. All the satellite dishes point to pick up the French satellites - for the porn freely available on some French channels. People are funny, aren't they? The ones who haven't made it to the West want to be there and to enjoy what's available there and those who've made it yearn for an idealised version of what they've abandoned or supposedly escaped.

crippen 12th Mar 2015 08:58

2 phantom pages now. The scissors are really out now! :cool:

Ovation 12th Mar 2015 10:49

That second-hand story about the "Aboriginal taxi-service" is, putting it politely, at best, disingenuous. A better word to describe it, I think, starts with 'B' and ends with 'T'.

May I politely correct you. The story was FIRST hand from a friend who'd spent many years delivering specialised medical services to indigenous Australians in WA, NT and QLD.

It could be dismissed as disingenous, but mostly by those who wear rose coloured glasses and don't want to believe there is an indigenous problem of epic proportion.

Stanwell 12th Mar 2015 11:50

Fair enough, Ovation.
I'm sure, though, that you'd agree the indigenous population don't have a monopoly on 'rorts'.
MTOW's example above is a good one and there are many other examples happening right now - from politicians down - right under our noses.

I do know that the RFDS implemented measures many years ago to knock that sort of attempted rorting on the head.

".. an indigenous problem of epic proportion."
That was the reaction of the early 'settlers' to those troublesome blacks who objected to having their land stolen and their lifestyle destroyed.
The original inhabitants, who we displaced - largely by force, have now become 'barnacles on the @rse of our society', eh?

What do you propose as culturally-sensitive and humanitarian solutions to this 'problem', then?

PPRuNe Towers 12th Mar 2015 13:16

Slacking on your medication Crippen?

Considering the topic, always a remarkably civilised thread. In the last 4 weeks 3 posts deleted and in every case the deletion was by the poster who made it.


Eddie Dean 12th Mar 2015 20:30

it is not the people in the bush wasting the whiteman's tax money. Look closer to the urban areas at the gamon aboriginals being funded in their lifestyle. Go to a website called black steam train for a perspective on the issue

Ovation 14th Mar 2015 00:34

Comments from Bill Shorten (a practising hypocrite) who said on 28 January 2013 (my bolding):

I donít want to stop people living where they want to live. On the other hand, do you ask every other taxpayer to subsidise peopleís lifestyle choices? I think thatís really hard Ö

This is the dilemma about living in some areas which are highly risky. I mean, do you stop people living there altogether? Or do you say, okay, but you need to be aware of the risks of where you build and live.
Different problem - QLD floods
Different people - Non indigenous

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