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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

Worrals in the wilds 29th Jan 2015 04:34


I would be interested in what the Gold coast region is doing.
Dunno, it's hard to say. Certainly the southern Gold Coast seats are all rusted on LNP, so I don't think there will be any changes. Although Stevens and Barton have made themselves look like prize geese, I think Hell will frieze over before Mermaid goes Labor. I suspect there'll be a swing to Labor and maybe a Katter protest vote, but not enough to threaten any seats except Albert.

Albert in the north of the city is Labor's best chance, and the huge number of campaign signs (from everyone) around the area bear witness to that. It's where all the parties are concentrating their Gold Coast effort.

Issues-wise, TBH most of my friends still live in Brisbane so I'm more across what's bugging people up there. I think there's much more dislike towards the LNP in Brisbane than there is on the Goldie, but Brisbane has always been a fairly Labor town. It's also where the state public service is centred, and where a lot of the job cuts were made.

In all the SEQ cities, I think the big issues are jobs (and lack thereof), cost of living, the economy and to some people (not all), asset sales. However, I think the government's personality is actually one of its biggest albatrosses; most of that comes down to Newman, though Bleije, Driscoll and Stevens all deserve honourable mentions :rolleyes:.

The state government is much closer in Brisbane than it is outside the capital (even the Gold Coast feels relatively far away), and everyone knows a guy who knows a story about the Premier or his flunkies being jerks, throwing their weight around or trying to silence dissent. As with Bligh, there have been too many of those stories floating around to be ignored, and IMO they are putting a big dent in the government's reputation, both in terms of popularity, and with respect to their lack of ability to govern without fighting everyone and everything.

bosnich71 29th Jan 2015 04:35

"Our" A.B.C. lost 3.95% of it's group audience across all channels in 2014.There was even a 3.8% drop in the over 55 demographic which is usually their core audience.Obviously I am not alone in switching the boring b*****s off.
P.s. Hi Ethel I notice some of your mates have joined you on here ... smiley added.

Worrals in the wilds 29th Jan 2015 04:41

Speaking of which, where is Andu these days? :confused: I notice his username had 'registered user' added to it, which is not usually a good sign :suspect:...

owen meaney 29th Jan 2015 04:52

I would have preferred Gina Rinehart to have been made a Knight of the Order of Australia, that would have got the dogs howling

Worrals in the wilds 29th Jan 2015 06:06

At least she's Australian.
Just catching the early news and the headline is day one of the Sydney cafe siege inquest. Apparently Katrina Dawson was killed by a police bullet ricochet :(. At least they've admitted to it; in a lot of places it would have been covered up.

To be clear, IMO her death was still caused by mud-guts. If it wasn't for his actions the police wouldn't have had to shoot.

parabellum 29th Jan 2015 06:53

The bit I saw said she was killed by several fragments from a ricocheting police bullet. Doesn't make her any less dead but tends to suggest she wasn't deliberately shot by accident. The manager was executed, kneeling down, with a shotgun discharged 75cms behind his head.

MTOW 29th Jan 2015 07:23

Some reports say she (the lawyer who was killed by police bullets) was attempting to protect a pregnant woman. If that means she was anywhere put flattened as close to the floor tiles as she possibly could be when the police came in, however noble her motives, she was putting herself at enormous risk.

Any head not absolutely flat to the floor is a potential risk to the storming party - it could be an armed 'sleeper' assistant to the hostage-taker who had not yet shown his/her hand and so has to be treated as a threat - and whether she was hit by a ricochet or not, if she was doing anything but trying to bury herself into the carpet, she was at risk of catching a stray (or maybe even aimed) round.

The coroner said that two policemen expended 23(?) rounds. The TV coverage of the assault led me to believe that they'd fired considerably more rounds than that.

The police probably won't say so, but I'll bet they're cursing the coffee shop manager for his bravery that forced their hand and made them go in in reaction to Monis killing him. They would have much preferred to have waited another hour or so and initiated the assault at a time of their choosing, possibly after Monis had started cat-napping. 3am does that to all of us.

Worrals in the wilds 29th Jan 2015 07:43

I think more people need to know that. Like getting out of a house when it's on fire, doing CPR and staying quiet during an armed hold-up it's not intuitive, particularly in a culture raised on Bruce Willis movies :(. WIthout being alarmist (after all, most people don't have to escape house fires but we know what to do if it happens) there should be a public safety campaign about it.

parabellum 29th Jan 2015 08:15

Agree with everything you say MTOW, but, unlike Israel, hostage situations and correct reactions are not taught in primary school here in Australia.


People won't want to admit it but the time is fast approaching when the general public are going to have to have made available to them some basic rules about what to do when you find yourself in a hostage situation. The reason I say "made available to them" is because if I said "will have to be instructed in" the civil rights bunch would be all over it like a rash.

I heard a lot of noise too but some of it was from the 'flash bangs', they did use quite a few.


A good film to see, (from 2006), that includes a hostage element, with a twist, is "The Inside Man". Well worth seeing.

MTOW 29th Jan 2015 08:44

Not long after the Israelis did the hostage rescue at Entebbe, someone (not the Yanks - might even have been an Israeli film company) made a cheapie movie about it. I seem to remember that there was a scene showing how one of the hostages who was killed stuck his head up and tried to speak to the rescuers as they came into the room where most of the hostages were held. The rescuers shot him.

I agree that maybe the cops should put out an advisory on rules to follow if you're taken hostage. Our too litigious lawyers would probably get involved and make that an impossible project as they'd sue the State if anything even in the slightest didn't go exactly as the police document said it would.

Our current legal system makes Monday morning quarterbacks look like an adoring fan club.

Pinky the pilot 29th Jan 2015 08:55


The manager was executed, kneeling down, with a shotgun discharged 75cms behind his head.
With all due respect Parabellum, and if accused of being pedantic I plead guilty, but the Manager was not executed. He was murdered!

I maintain there is a difference.

david1300 29th Jan 2015 09:00


Originally Posted by MTOW (Post 8844533)
Some reports say she (the lawyer who was killed by police bullets) was attempting to protect a pregnant woman. If that means she was anywhere put flattened as close to the floor tiles as she possibly could be when the police came in, however noble her motives, she was putting herself at enormous risk.

Any head not absolutely flat to the floor is a potential risk to the storming party - it could be an armed 'sleeper' assistant to the hostage-taker who had not yet shown his/her hand and so has to be treated as a threat - and whether she was hit by a ricochet or not, if she was doing anything but trying to bury herself into the carpet, she was at risk of catching a stray (or maybe even aimed) round.

The coroner said that two policemen expended 23(?) rounds. The TV coverage of the assault led me to believe that they'd fired considerably more rounds than that.

The police probably won't say so, but I'll bet they're cursing the coffee shop manager for his bravery that forced their hand and made them go in in reaction to Monis killing him. They would have much preferred to have waited another hour or so and initiated the assault at a time of their choosing, possibly after Monis had started cat-napping. 3am does that to all of us.

I think you've gone off half-cocked iro some comments above. Where do you get the idea that the manager was being brave? The coronial inquest heard that he was ordered to kneel on the floor, he complied, and a short time without any further notice he was shot in the back of the head. A police sniper placed in the Ch 7 building reported in and the police then stormed approx 10 sec later. They used 'flash bangs' that give the impression of many rounds being fired (loud bangs and flashes) although only 2 policemen actually fired (I need to recheck this number). Reports are that the second hostage that died was hit by 6 fragments of bullets that ricocheted off hard surfaces. One fragment severed a major blood vessel - the cause of death. Arguably she is an out and out hero, as those bullet fragments may have hit the pregnant hostage she was shielding, and certainly nothing like you make her out to be.

Worrals in the wilds 29th Jan 2015 09:29


Where do you get the idea that the manager was being brave?
Initial media reports were that the manager tried to take the shotgun from the offender. I don't know if that's been submitted to the inquest; if it happened, did it happen before he was ordered to kneel? Is that why he was murdered?

Anyway, if their actions were as reported in the media, whether what they did was actually the best thing to do is immaterial to their bravery. I agree with you David; on what's been reported, they were heroes. They were ordinary people who made decisions to protect other people based upon what they thought was the best thing to do. I'm certainly not dissing them for it, and nor (I believe) are MTOW or parabellum. I don't think they're calling Mrs Dawson an idiot.

However, if there is a tried and tested better way to respond to type of situation, then people need to know that. As a nation we need to have this discussion, without ever diminishing the brave actions of those two people who undoubtedly did what they thought was best.

If a man runs into a burning house to save a child without knowing that he should stay close to the ground and wrap a wet rag around his mouth and nose, then he will probably die. He is still a hero for trying, as were the two siege victims. However, if (as they are) the general public are educated about fires, then another man may crawl into the burning house, rescue the child and survive. He is still a hero, but more importantly he is an alive hero.

Likewise siege situations. Having the public discussion about what they might have done better does not diminish them or their actions.

rh200 29th Jan 2015 11:31


I maintain there is a difference.
A murder can be an execution.

Correct A murder is an illegal act, an execution can be an legal act.

He was murdered, and it sounds like executed.

owen meaney 29th Jan 2015 19:05

Mmmm, advice to the public about how to survive a siege?
1. Carry a gun - woops sorry against the law for a citizen to carry in Aust.
2. Carry a knife - see 1 above
3. Carry a can of Mace - see 1 above.
4. Lay down on the floor and cry like a baby

but I'll bet they're cursing the coffee shop manager for his bravery that forced their hand and made them go in in reaction to Monis killing him.
MTOW, I'll cover that bet, and up your ante, they would have been extremely pissed off that the ROE did not allow a head shot at earliest convenience and had to wait until someone was killed ON THEIR WATCH.

Fubaar 29th Jan 2015 20:10

I think there'd be very few of us who'd disagree with your last comment, Owen. I watched the Paul Murray show last night on Sky and he had a professor on who is an expert in the terrorism/security field. (American, but long term Australian-based.) Murray was in rant mode, saying the NSW police and government mishandled the whole sorry exercise very badly. The failure to declare the event a terrorist attack kept everything in NSW police hands, whereas the Army would have taken over had it been declared a terrorist attack.

Even now, on the ABC yesterday, some talking head was stressing that Monis had had no contact with ISIS, (so therefore, he was a deranged lone wolf). This, despite ISIS openly broadcasting to every Muslim to make 'lone wolf' attacks on their behalf.

As for why Monis killed the the coffee shop manager when he did: I thought the manager had tried to wrest the shot gun out of his hands, and while he did this, the last group of hostages escaped. He failed in his attempt to disarm Monis, who then killed him. That's what the TV news said at the time. Not that that's any guarantee it is an accurate account.

I agree that the police would have preferred to go in at a time of their own choosing rather than in a rush in reaction to Monis starting to kill hostages.

bosnich71 29th Jan 2015 21:17

Fubaar .... " whereas the Army would have taken over had it been declared a terrorist attack".
Which is why 4 RAR converted to the 'Commando' role some years back.

parabellum 30th Jan 2015 00:47

Pinky - I take your point, my use of the word 'execution' was simply to describe the nature of the murder, i.e. deliberate, calculated etc. and not in a moment of passion.


Britain has a (rotatable) team of SAS on permanent stand-by for hostage and hijack situations, highly trained, ready at a moments notice and able to be anywhere in the UK very quickly. Perth to Sydney a different story. Personally I thought the police did well in Sydney.

bosnich71 30th Jan 2015 01:35

Para .... I think that 4 RAR took over the counter terrorism role from SAS some time back, hence my previous post.Perhaps we are not supposed to know that though, in which case the Mods should bin this entry.

shortfuse-flanagan 30th Jan 2015 01:54

Phil and the gong.
 
Things are starting to be quiet enough to ask: If Prince Philip can be awarded a Companion of The Order of Australia in 1988 by Bob Hawke PM (Lab), and nothing is said, why would Abbott's awarding bother anybody except those so afflicted with feigned indignity or the oppressed Labor, Green, media 'leftards' and anti Monarchists movements? It's not an award for bravery or anything, simply an honorary title for services rendered to the populace. (a bit like Gillard's Honorary University Doctorate).
Perhaps Abbott's 'team' should do some naval gazing as well before going off at the drop of the hat. It cost the Taxpayer nothing in the case of Bob Hawke and Tony Abbott. It cost the taxpayer heaps in the Gillard case. However ill advised it may have been, it's simply not a 'hanging offence'.


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