|
Hi Antill. I don't think anyone could disagree with the points you make. It's always been unfair, and I'm afraid, whatever system is in place and however well-meaning its designers, a degree of unfairness will always exist. (As an example that might not sit easily with some here, I reference Tony Abbott's daughter winning a $60,000 scholarship at some fashion designer school. I mean really, is there anyone out there who doesn't entertain just the teensiest weensiest bit of doubt that she might not have won that 101% on merit?)
But really, has it been any fairer under the post-Whitlam scheme? Whatever the system, the silvertails' kids have always enjoyed advantages that we, the hoi pilloi, can never hope to see. What has changed is who make up 'the silvertails'. Today, the kids of the rich silvertails have been replaced (in part - the rich silvertails' kids are still there, if in smaller proportions to what they once were) by the full-fee paying overseas students, who are predominately Chinese. All too many of these overseas students are allowed to continue to graduation because they pay full fees rather than because they are meeting what would once have been considered an acceptable minimum standard. The standard of English of some of these graduates after three years or more at an Australian university and supposedly doing high level courses beggars belief - and I don't say that in a positive sense. I was at a function at Sydney University recently and was a little surprised to be told that the number of overseas students enrolled at the university was around 30,000. That's overseas students. You don't think that on a 'level playing field', without the full fee factor, our universities might be providing more places to local students? I don't for one moment contend that I have an answer to this. Except to say that I think the government is well overdue in coming up with some sort of scholarship assistance for students who take on courses that that same government has assessed as being required for the future or in the national interest - and that does not include degrees in applied basket weaving. Referencing my 'applied basket weaving' comment, I thought the following, from another site, was interesting. We were in Boston a few years back having dinner one evening. The waitress who was pleasant enough picked up our Australian accents and proudly told us she was going to Sydney the following year to study at University. Given we were in the education capital of the world I was somewhat curious why someone would go from Boston to Sydney to study. She replied 'oh I want to do social integration' or something along those lines 'and they actually have very few courses like that in America but lots of choices in Australia' . Maybe that explains why the US has NASA ,Boeing, IBM, Microsoft and Fed Ex while Australia has Centrelink, The ABC and Fair Work. |
The Commonwealth Scholarship Scheme provided positions on courses where quite clever people saw a requirement for graduates I am a mature aged student (second degree) who transferred from a BSc to another course after a year because continuing Science wasn't a good financial/career move. I would have studied for three more years only to take a pay cut. Not just an initial pay cut, but an ongoing one :(. It didn't make financial sense, and that's under the current subsidised system; deregulate the fees and I don't know why anyone would study science. Maybe for the love of knowledge? Knowledge doesn't pay the mortgage. I earn more as a grunt (albiet a specialised one, with a degree) than I would as a scientist, so I switched courses. I doubt that I'm the only one, and I'm sure that many year twelve students are doing the weigh-up when they consider what to study after school. We already have a shortage of nurses, teachers and scientists, and hiking the fees up will make that much, much worse. Pyne likes to glorify the US system and claim that our system should follow their lead. However, the USA has 316 million people; we have 23 million. The US has about 4600 university/degree granting institutions; we have about 50. He's not just failing to compare apples with apples, but is comparing a backyard apple orchard roadside stand with Woolworths/Coles combined. IMO he's hoping no-one will notice that. :suspect: He's also ignoring criticism from within the US about their system's failings, because of course he would. Maybe he should enrol in a BSc (Mathematics)... but firstly he probably couldn't manage the sums and secondly, financially he does much better as a federal politician. :yuk::* I was at a function at Sydney University recently and was a little surprised to be told that the number of overseas students enrolled at the university was around 30,000. Smoke and mirrors. I have no problem with the HECS/HELP system. I did my primary degree under that system and paid it off in instalments, and I think that's fair and reasonable. If the fees are no longer covering the costs, then increase the fees. If the sandstone unis are complaining about the lack of funds then institute a two tiered system (which already exists informally) and let them charge more. However, deregulating the whole thing thows the baby out with the bathwater. Claiming that 'the free market will regulate the system' assumes that tertiary education provision is a free market, and it isn't. It's a very small, highly regulated market and there's nothing free about it. The word cartel springs to mind, and currently it's a cartel that has the ear of the government. |
Worrals - What am I missing. You, doing a mature student degree in science, with a view to getting a job in science, wouldn't you be expecting to start at the bottom and there fore take a pay cut anyway? As the junior scientist with no practical experience you surely don't expect to be paid more because of age, do you? (no argument with anything else, don't know anything about the various systems, old and new).
|
Originally Posted by Worrals in the wilds
(Post 8717236)
...I am a mature aged student (second degree) who transferred from a BSc to another course after a year because continuing Science wasn't a good financial/career move. I would have studied for three more years only to take a pay cut. Not just an initial pay cut, but an ongoing one :(. It didn't make financial sense, and that's under the current subsidised system; deregulate the fees and I don't know why anyone would study science. Maybe for the love of knowledge? Knowledge doesn't pay the mortgage. I earn more as a grunt (albiet a specialised one, with a degree) than I would as a scientist, so I switched courses. I doubt that I'm the only one, and I'm sure that many year twelve students are doing the weigh-up when they consider what to study after school. We already have a shortage of nurses, teachers and scientists, and hiking the fees up will make that much, much worse....
And I don't believe we have a shortage of nurses in absolute numbers. Read back a few pages and you'll see that we have an artificial shortage of nurses as they are now required to have degrees, as opposed to 'merely' being hospital trained on the job. The creation of degrees where none were needed is another legacy of the Gough-up :ugh: |
A case in point: how many graduates in Marine Biology work in the field of marine biology?
Working over a deep fryer at a fish 'n' chip shop not included. And how many new students, racking up a HECS debt, get accepted into Marine Biology courses every year? |
Worrals.
Mistake one, you don't do a science degree for money. The whole system is stuffed as has been mentioned before. A significant amount of the degrees need to be closed down and the money put into vocational training instead. Its actually becoming ho hum to have a degree these days and no great achievement. Even getting a masters isn't that big a deal. And a PhD is regarded in some areas as a minimum of any real use. |
Did Gillard's idea to cut the 10% discount for paying HECS up front ever get through?
I am deferred on a BSc course but may soon have time to continue it and want to pay up front if I do. If no discount then no point but it's a bit daft getting a HECS debt at my age. |
What am I missing. You, doing a mature student degree in science, with a view to getting a job in science, wouldn't you be expecting to start at the bottom and therefore take a pay cut anyway? As the junior scientist with no practical experience you surely don't expect to be paid more because of age, do you? As Richo would say, it's all about the numbers. Your reply suggests a certain 'who do you think you are' bonhomie... maybe you have a point:\. However, who do I think I am? I think I am a person who can complete a tertiary degree and do better than I am doing today. I'm the person who is prepared to pay $1100 per subject (under the current regulated scheme) to do so. It's not the starting wage that bothers me, more the 'ten years in' wage that's alarming. Hence (partially) the change in direction. and the money put into vocational training instead. Read back a few pages and you'll see that we have an artificial shortage of nurses as they are now required to have degrees, as opposed to 'merely' being hospital trained on the job. Want to be a teacher? You go to uni, because there are no longer any valid teaching certificate courses. That's the system, and no amount of complaining will wind back the clock. None of your concerns address the issue; that a person wanting to become a nurse or teacher is now forced to complete a bachelor degree, and under the proposed deregulation that will cost far more than it does at the moment. There is no viable alternative unless the system changes, and the systemic changes proposed by the government (fee deregulation) don't address this. The government are not offering to change the requirements for nursing or teaching, they're just allowing those requirements to become more expensive. They like to focus on law and dentistry graduates as big earners (though it's debateable with law graduates), but they have failed to address how deregulation will work for the lower paid professions. Did Gillard's idea to cut the 10% discount for paying HECS up front ever get through? |
HECS on a LLB at Deakin is $48,000
|
Yo
ur reply suggests a certain 'who do you think you are' bonhomie I think we should make all young people do real jobs for the first 10 years or so of theire life, then work out what they want and go to Uni if needed :E (joke). Some one mentioned scholarships and Abbott. My experience is, and I thought this was the case and happy to be enlightened. There are "scholarships", and there are schoarships. Another words there are the run of the mill ones that get thrown in the mix that people go for, and then there are specials. These specials are very dependent on where the money comes from. As such if Jo or Jill Bloh benefactor wants to hand out a scholarship, then its their money and they can give it whom ever they like on a whim. I was under the understanding that the Scholarship that Abbotts daughter got was a special discretionary one. Now people may not like that, but frankely they get handed out on on whims to all sorts of stupid things. |
Labor Senator and Olympic athlete Nova Peris says she "categorically rejects any wrongdoing" over allegations that she used taxpayers' money to bring Olympic sprinter Ato Boldon to Australia to help her carry out an extra-marital affair with him. The allegations in the Northern Territory News detail Boldon's visit to Australia in 2010 in the lead-up to the London Olympics. Boldon has also labelled the allegations as "gross fabrications" and has threatened legal action over the article The Northern Territory News claims to have obtained explicit email exchanges between Senator Peris, who at the time was an Athletics Australia ambassador and communication officer with the Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies, and Boldon, the four-time Olympic medal winner from Trinidad and Tobago. Senator Peris had personally selected Boldon for the 10-day "Jump Start to London" program, and she sought funding from Athletics Australia and other sources to bring him to Australia. But the newspaper claims Senator Peris, who at the time was married to Australian sprinter Daniel Batman, exchanged emails with Boldon in which they discussed their impending affair. Senator Peris also sent a nude photograph to the sprinter at his request, the newspaper claims "Ato … tell me babe … what u want … Make a bit of money and spend time together … I will take time of [sic] from work to be with u," Senator Peris wrote in an email exchange, the NT News says. Boldon responded: "Purpose is time with u plus attend trials plus help them promote the trials and possibly guest broadcast on the tv station carrying it … need hotel ticket plus 15,000 US … " In another email on February 28, 2010, Senator Peris reportedly wrote: "You should be compensated for your long haul travels across the pacifi c.. sexually of course … but only ... a tired traveller should kick back for a few days." In other emails, Senator Peris reportedly said she was getting the money for his trip through the "indigenous grants mob" and that he would not have to pay tax on his payment. "Let me know babe if this is ok? I just want to do everything right for you," she reportedly wrote. The exact amount of money Boldon received is unclear but in an email from mid-March in 2010, Senator Peris reportedly wrote that she had managed to round up $22,000 for him, on top of the money Athletics Australia paid, the newspaper said. In one of the emails to Boldon, Senator Peris also allegedly criticises Australian Olympian Cathy Freeman. "Like Freeman here, she is so so dumb (sad but true) and has a national profile of running fast achieving awesome things but seriously can't talk for sh*t, and has zero communication skills ... " In a response to the Northern Territory News, Senator Peris said she "categorically rejects any wrongdoing". "During his trip Mr Boldon promoted athletics, attended and promoted specific events and conducted clinics for young Indigenous athletes," she is reported to have said. "Other organisations, including the West Australian Government, supported some events during the visit. I understand Athletics Australia was pleased with the outcome of the visit. "The highs and lows of my athletic career – and now political career – are public. "The highs and lows of my private life are matters for me and my family. "Documents provided to the NT News are private. It appears they were not lawfully obtained by a third party. "I cannot vouch for the veracity of emails I have not seen." Boldon, who now works for ESPN and NBC Sports in the US, posted a statement on his Facebook page early on Wednesday morning disputing the "malicious representation". "Nova Peris is a former training partner of mine, and has been a friend for almost 20 years," Boldon said. "My last trip to Australia, almost five years ago, was for the purpose of holding several youth clinics, and it was a successful undertaking. The trip was co-organised by one of my now-deceased colleagues at Athletics Australia. "The article recently written by the Northern Territory News, includes gross fabrications. "I will be following the senator's lead, including, but not limited to, pursuing all legal action possible for this malicious misrepresentation of the details surrounding my presence in Australia in 2010." Labor Leader Bill Shorten said on Wednesday that the emails were "deeply personal" for Senator Peris and noted that she had denied any wrongdoing. "I've seen the report. I don't have any comment to make. Senator Peris has denied any wrongdoing, I certainly shan't be commenting," Mr Shorten told the ABC. |
Now, the exact same people who want to be nurses still become nurses, but it's through the unis, not the hospitals. Change of subject completely: I suspect it's every bit as likely that the people who leaked Nova Peris' emails were Trish Crossen's (sp?) followers as they were Liberal Party minions. To quote a long ago ALP luminary: no one does hate like the Labor Party. |
I havn't kept up with the old nurses thing over the years, do they still do EN's and RN's?
The 'sacred cow' trifecta: indigenous, female and a sporting personality. This'll be interestin |
Trust me rh, it's better without pictures.
Andu CLP isn't the likely source. If they were to run with it, it would be much closer to the election for maximum effect. |
I agree with you Cooda. This has a Labar Pardy smell to it. I must say, I think Trish Crossen (sp?) has a case to feel aggrieved. 'The Captain's Pick' hasn't exactly set the Senate on fire since being given the nod by 'The Captain'.
Am I the only one who is utterly amazed that anyone even remotely in the public eye would put anything even remotely controversial into an electronic document? I know Ms Kneebone wasn't in politics then, but she was already in the public eye with her Olympic commitments. |
Worrals - Sorry, no, not what I intended, really did think I had missed the point, which, more or less, I had! :O
|
|
Am I the only one who is utterly amazed that anyone even remotely in the public eye would put anything even remotely controversial into an electronic document? |
Sorry Para, no worries. It's an issue I get prickly about, partly because of large amount of self interest. :O
I agree with you Cooda. This has a Labar Pardy smell to it. I havn't kept up with the old nurses thing over the years, do they still do EN's and RN's? I think we should make all young people do real jobs for the first 10 years or so of theire life, then work out what they want and go to Uni if needed :E (joke). |
Although not so political, if Paul Gallen can receive a $50,000 fine for swearing in a tweet, then maybe the NRL should start running the Oz legal system. Wouldn't be much crime after that! ;)
|
| All times are GMT. The time now is 22:03. |
Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.