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Andu 28th Oct 2014 07:50

Hi Antill. I don't think anyone could disagree with the points you make. It's always been unfair, and I'm afraid, whatever system is in place and however well-meaning its designers, a degree of unfairness will always exist. (As an example that might not sit easily with some here, I reference Tony Abbott's daughter winning a $60,000 scholarship at some fashion designer school. I mean really, is there anyone out there who doesn't entertain just the teensiest weensiest bit of doubt that she might not have won that 101% on merit?)

But really, has it been any fairer under the post-Whitlam scheme? Whatever the system, the silvertails' kids have always enjoyed advantages that we, the hoi pilloi, can never hope to see. What has changed is who make up 'the silvertails'.

Today, the kids of the rich silvertails have been replaced (in part - the rich silvertails' kids are still there, if in smaller proportions to what they once were) by the full-fee paying overseas students, who are predominately Chinese. All too many of these overseas students are allowed to continue to graduation because they pay full fees rather than because they are meeting what would once have been considered an acceptable minimum standard. The standard of English of some of these graduates after three years or more at an Australian university and supposedly doing high level courses beggars belief - and I don't say that in a positive sense.

I was at a function at Sydney University recently and was a little surprised to be told that the number of overseas students enrolled at the university was around 30,000. That's overseas students. You don't think that on a 'level playing field', without the full fee factor, our universities might be providing more places to local students?

I don't for one moment contend that I have an answer to this. Except to say that I think the government is well overdue in coming up with some sort of scholarship assistance for students who take on courses that that same government has assessed as being required for the future or in the national interest - and that does not include degrees in applied basket weaving.


Referencing my 'applied basket weaving' comment, I thought the following, from another site, was interesting.


We were in Boston a few years back having dinner one evening. The waitress who was pleasant enough picked up our Australian accents and proudly told us she was going to Sydney the following year to study at University. Given we were in the education capital of the world I was somewhat curious why someone would go from Boston to Sydney to study.

She replied 'oh I want to do social integration' or something along those lines 'and they actually have very few courses like that in America but lots of choices in Australia' .

Maybe that explains why the US has NASA ,Boeing, IBM, Microsoft and Fed Ex while Australia has Centrelink, The ABC and Fair Work.

Worrals in the wilds 28th Oct 2014 09:12


The Commonwealth Scholarship Scheme provided positions on courses where quite clever people saw a requirement for graduates
The current mob are not planning to reinstitute that scheme. If they had then there might be some merit to deregulating fees, but they haven't. There has been no mention of scholarships or any other form of assistance for students who have the ability but lack funds. Nor has there been any discussion about the effect of deregulated fees on courses such as science, nursing or teaching where graduates cannot expect to earn big bucks to pay off their debt. The basket weaving courses attract a lot of disdain, much of it justified. However, many other degrees train professionals that our community needs, but doesn't provide six figure salaries for.

I am a mature aged student (second degree) who transferred from a BSc to another course after a year because continuing Science wasn't a good financial/career move. I would have studied for three more years only to take a pay cut. Not just an initial pay cut, but an ongoing one :(. It didn't make financial sense, and that's under the current subsidised system; deregulate the fees and I don't know why anyone would study science. Maybe for the love of knowledge? Knowledge doesn't pay the mortgage. I earn more as a grunt (albiet a specialised one, with a degree) than I would as a scientist, so I switched courses. I doubt that I'm the only one, and I'm sure that many year twelve students are doing the weigh-up when they consider what to study after school. We already have a shortage of nurses, teachers and scientists, and hiking the fees up will make that much, much worse.

Pyne likes to glorify the US system and claim that our system should follow their lead. However, the USA has 316 million people; we have 23 million. The US has about 4600 university/degree granting institutions; we have about 50. He's not just failing to compare apples with apples, but is comparing a backyard apple orchard roadside stand with Woolworths/Coles combined. IMO he's hoping no-one will notice that. :suspect: He's also ignoring criticism from within the US about their system's failings, because of course he would.
Maybe he should enrol in a BSc (Mathematics)... but firstly he probably couldn't manage the sums and secondly, financially he does much better as a federal politician. :yuk::*

I was at a function at Sydney University recently and was a little surprised to be told that the number of overseas students enrolled at the university was around 30,000.
The full fee paying international students have become very lucrative for universities. Tertiary education has become a very profitable Australian industry; their fees contribute much needed income to our universities and (to a certain extent) subsidise the local commonwealth supported places. I have no problem with that and I think we should encourage foreign students; aside from their fees they bring a lot of secondary income to Australia while they live here, pay rent and eat food. However, this massive source of income hasn't been acknowledged by the universities and nor has the federal government seen the need to mention it. :suspect:
Smoke and mirrors.

I have no problem with the HECS/HELP system. I did my primary degree under that system and paid it off in instalments, and I think that's fair and reasonable. If the fees are no longer covering the costs, then increase the fees. If the sandstone unis are complaining about the lack of funds then institute a two tiered system (which already exists informally) and let them charge more. However, deregulating the whole thing thows the baby out with the bathwater. Claiming that 'the free market will regulate the system' assumes that tertiary education provision is a free market, and it isn't. It's a very small, highly regulated market and there's nothing free about it. The word cartel springs to mind, and currently it's a cartel that has the ear of the government.

parabellum 28th Oct 2014 10:45

Worrals - What am I missing. You, doing a mature student degree in science, with a view to getting a job in science, wouldn't you be expecting to start at the bottom and there fore take a pay cut anyway? As the junior scientist with no practical experience you surely don't expect to be paid more because of age, do you? (no argument with anything else, don't know anything about the various systems, old and new).

david1300 28th Oct 2014 11:00


Originally Posted by Worrals in the wilds (Post 8717236)
...I am a mature aged student (second degree) who transferred from a BSc to another course after a year because continuing Science wasn't a good financial/career move. I would have studied for three more years only to take a pay cut. Not just an initial pay cut, but an ongoing one :(. It didn't make financial sense, and that's under the current subsidised system; deregulate the fees and I don't know why anyone would study science. Maybe for the love of knowledge? Knowledge doesn't pay the mortgage. I earn more as a grunt (albiet a specialised one, with a degree) than I would as a scientist, so I switched courses. I doubt that I'm the only one, and I'm sure that many year twelve students are doing the weigh-up when they consider what to study after school. We already have a shortage of nurses, teachers and scientists, and hiking the fees up will make that much, much worse....

Worrals, doesn't this highlight the problem? Maybe if is too easy to start a degree without much financial pain, or research into 'life after I get my degree', so we have many students starting degrees they will never finish, or never use; maybe even degrees in skills that are over staffed or no longer really needed. As long ago as the 1990's I was employing Marketing and Journalism/Communications graduates in unrelated fields because there were just too many graduates for the positions available. Maybe if they (or their families) had some 'hurt money' in the game there would have been a more rigorous choice of course - doing something that would pay 'after the party', and not just something they liked or thought they had an interest in.

And I don't believe we have a shortage of nurses in absolute numbers. Read back a few pages and you'll see that we have an artificial shortage of nurses as they are now required to have degrees, as opposed to 'merely' being hospital trained on the job. The creation of degrees where none were needed is another legacy of the Gough-up :ugh:

7x7 28th Oct 2014 11:22

A case in point: how many graduates in Marine Biology work in the field of marine biology?

Working over a deep fryer at a fish 'n' chip shop not included.

And how many new students, racking up a HECS debt, get accepted into Marine Biology courses every year?

rh200 28th Oct 2014 11:25

Worrals.

Mistake one, you don't do a science degree for money.

The whole system is stuffed as has been mentioned before. A significant amount of the degrees need to be closed down and the money put into vocational training instead.

Its actually becoming ho hum to have a degree these days and no great achievement. Even getting a masters isn't that big a deal. And a PhD is regarded in some areas as a minimum of any real use.

Clare Prop 28th Oct 2014 11:43

Did Gillard's idea to cut the 10% discount for paying HECS up front ever get through?

I am deferred on a BSc course but may soon have time to continue it and want to pay up front if I do. If no discount then no point but it's a bit daft getting a HECS debt at my age.

Worrals in the wilds 28th Oct 2014 12:01


What am I missing. You, doing a mature student degree in science, with a view to getting a job in science, wouldn't you be expecting to start at the bottom and therefore take a pay cut anyway? As the junior scientist with no practical experience you surely don't expect to be paid more because of age, do you?
Of course not, but I expected to be able to make it up to the previous rate in a reasonable amount of time, say within five years of graduating with good service (which is the case with my current course of study). That wasn't an option with science :sad:. With my current course of study it is the case; I put in the time (lots of time :{:cool:), get the degree, take the paycut, work fourteen hour days (used to that) and in the long run... do better. Society loses a prospective scientist and gains another...sorry fellahs :E:cool::}!
As Richo would say, it's all about the numbers. Your reply suggests a certain 'who do you think you are' bonhomie... maybe you have a point:\. However, who do I think I am? I think I am a person who can complete a tertiary degree and do better than I am doing today. I'm the person who is prepared to pay $1100 per subject (under the current regulated scheme) to do so. It's not the starting wage that bothers me, more the 'ten years in' wage that's alarming. Hence (partially) the change in direction.


and the money put into vocational training instead.
Agreed. I would have a HECS scheme for both, to encourage people to do both. I wouldn't break a system that works (HELP) because the other system doesn't; IMO it would be better to improve the VOC system so it functions as well as the other and fulfills the same purpose; to encourage people to better their skills, whether tertiary or trade and whatever their age or previous expertise.

Read back a few pages and you'll see that we have an artificial shortage of nurses as they are now required to have degrees, as opposed to 'merely' being hospital trained on the job.
Whether we like it or not, nurses have become professionals. Unless the health system makes a conscious choice to go back to trade trained nurses then the status quo remains; a three year degree. There are no longer any hospital courses for nurses. They don't exist. Want to be an RN? Then you go to uni. Thirty years ago, you got apprenticed (for want of a better word) to a hospital, but those courses are no longer available. Now, the exact same people who want to be nurses still become nurses, but it's through the unis, not the hospitals. Tempers fuggit...

Want to be a teacher? You go to uni, because there are no longer any valid teaching certificate courses. That's the system, and no amount of complaining will wind back the clock.

None of your concerns address the issue; that a person wanting to become a nurse or teacher is now forced to complete a bachelor degree, and under the proposed deregulation that will cost far more than it does at the moment. There is no viable alternative unless the system changes, and the systemic changes proposed by the government (fee deregulation) don't address this. The government are not offering to change the requirements for nursing or teaching, they're just allowing those requirements to become more expensive. They like to focus on law and dentistry graduates as big earners (though it's debateable with law graduates), but they have failed to address how deregulation will work for the lower paid professions.

Did Gillard's idea to cut the 10% discount for paying HECS up front ever get through?
EDIT: Yep. I was paying up front to get the discount, but stopped. Now it gets deducted through payroll and evens out over the year.

Hempy 28th Oct 2014 12:21

HECS on a LLB at Deakin is $48,000

rh200 28th Oct 2014 12:36

Yo

ur reply suggests a certain 'who do you think you are' bonhomie
Hardly, I'm/ was a mature aged blossom myself:p. Though I paid all my fees as I went and got a discount for it. Not sure where that went.

I think we should make all young people do real jobs for the first 10 years or so of theire life, then work out what they want and go to Uni if needed :E (joke).


Some one mentioned scholarships and Abbott. My experience is, and I thought this was the case and happy to be enlightened. There are "scholarships", and there are schoarships. Another words there are the run of the mill ones that get thrown in the mix that people go for, and then there are specials.

These specials are very dependent on where the money comes from. As such if Jo or Jill Bloh benefactor wants to hand out a scholarship, then its their money and they can give it whom ever they like on a whim.

I was under the understanding that the Scholarship that Abbotts daughter got was a special discretionary one. Now people may not like that, but frankely they get handed out on on whims to all sorts of stupid things.

Captain Sand Dune 28th Oct 2014 22:16


Labor Senator and Olympic athlete Nova Peris says she "categorically rejects any wrongdoing" over allegations that she used taxpayers' money to bring Olympic sprinter Ato Boldon to Australia to help her carry out an extra-marital affair with him.
The allegations in the Northern Territory News detail Boldon's visit to Australia in 2010 in the lead-up to the London Olympics.
Boldon has also labelled the allegations as "gross fabrications" and has threatened legal action over the article
The Northern Territory News claims to have obtained explicit email exchanges between Senator Peris, who at the time was an Athletics Australia ambassador and communication officer with the Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies, and Boldon, the four-time Olympic medal winner from Trinidad and Tobago.
Senator Peris had personally selected Boldon for the 10-day "Jump Start to London" program, and she sought funding from Athletics Australia and other sources to bring him to Australia.
But the newspaper claims Senator Peris, who at the time was married to Australian sprinter Daniel Batman, exchanged emails with Boldon in which they discussed their impending affair.
Senator Peris also sent a nude photograph to the sprinter at his request, the newspaper claims
"Ato tell me babe what u want Make a bit of money and spend time together I will take time of [sic] from work to be with u," Senator Peris wrote in an email exchange, the NT News says.
Boldon responded: "Purpose is time with u plus attend trials plus help them promote the trials and possibly guest broadcast on the tv station carrying it need hotel ticket plus 15,000 US "
In another email on February 28, 2010, Senator Peris reportedly wrote: "You should be compensated for your long haul travels across the pacifi c.. sexually of course but only ... a tired traveller should kick back for a few days."
In other emails, Senator Peris reportedly said she was getting the money for his trip through the "indigenous grants mob" and that he would not have to pay tax on his payment.
"Let me know babe if this is ok? I just want to do everything right for you," she reportedly wrote.
The exact amount of money Boldon received is unclear but in an email from mid-March in 2010, Senator Peris reportedly wrote that she had managed to round up $22,000 for him, on top of the money Athletics Australia paid, the newspaper said.
In one of the emails to Boldon, Senator Peris also allegedly criticises Australian Olympian Cathy Freeman.
"Like Freeman here, she is so so dumb (sad but true) and has a national profile of running fast achieving awesome things but seriously can't talk for sh*t, and has zero communication skills ... "
In a response to the Northern Territory News, Senator Peris said she "categorically rejects any wrongdoing".
"During his trip Mr Boldon promoted athletics, attended and promoted specific events and conducted clinics for young Indigenous athletes," she is reported to have said.
"Other organisations, including the West Australian Government, supported some events during the visit. I understand Athletics Australia was pleased with the outcome of the visit.
"The highs and lows of my athletic career and now political career are public.
"The highs and lows of my private life are matters for me and my family.
"Documents provided to the NT News are private. It appears they were not lawfully obtained by a third party.
"I cannot vouch for the veracity of emails I have not seen."
Boldon, who now works for ESPN and NBC Sports in the US, posted a statement on his Facebook page early on Wednesday morning disputing the "malicious representation".
"Nova Peris is a former training partner of mine, and has been a friend for almost 20 years," Boldon said.
"My last trip to Australia, almost five years ago, was for the purpose of holding several youth clinics, and it was a successful undertaking. The trip was co-organised by one of my now-deceased colleagues at Athletics Australia.
"The article recently written by the Northern Territory News, includes gross fabrications.
"I will be following the senator's lead, including, but not limited to, pursuing all legal action possible for this malicious misrepresentation of the details surrounding my presence in Australia in 2010."
Labor Leader Bill Shorten said on Wednesday that the emails were "deeply personal" for Senator Peris and noted that she had denied any wrongdoing.
"I've seen the report. I don't have any comment to make. Senator Peris has denied any wrongdoing, I certainly shan't be commenting," Mr Shorten told the ABC.
The 'sacred cow' trifecta: indigenous, female and a sporting personality. This'll be interesting:E

Andu 28th Oct 2014 23:07


Now, the exact same people who want to be nurses still become nurses, but it's through the unis, not the hospitals.
Worrals, one of the points I made a few pages was that because the uni. course does not allow the students to start earning a wage almost immediately as trainee nurses, all too often it is NOT "the exact same people" who become nurses today. Sadly, the nursing profession (it was a 'profession' long before the universities became involved) has lost a whole recruiting stream in those young women (and today, young men) from the small country towns and the less affluent sections of our cities for whom three years without an income is simply not an option.

Change of subject completely: I suspect it's every bit as likely that the people who leaked Nova Peris' emails were Trish Crossen's (sp?) followers as they were Liberal Party minions.

To quote a long ago ALP luminary: no one does hate like the Labor Party.

rh200 28th Oct 2014 23:58

I havn't kept up with the old nurses thing over the years, do they still do EN's and RN's?

The 'sacred cow' trifecta: indigenous, female and a sporting personality. This'll be interestin
Storys like this are better with pictures:p

CoodaShooda 29th Oct 2014 00:45

Trust me rh, it's better without pictures.

Andu
CLP isn't the likely source. If they were to run with it, it would be much closer to the election for maximum effect.

Andu 29th Oct 2014 01:39

I agree with you Cooda. This has a Labar Pardy smell to it. I must say, I think Trish Crossen (sp?) has a case to feel aggrieved. 'The Captain's Pick' hasn't exactly set the Senate on fire since being given the nod by 'The Captain'.

Am I the only one who is utterly amazed that anyone even remotely in the public eye would put anything even remotely controversial into an electronic document? I know Ms Kneebone wasn't in politics then, but she was already in the public eye with her Olympic commitments.

parabellum 29th Oct 2014 01:55

Worrals - Sorry, no, not what I intended, really did think I had missed the point, which, more or less, I had! :O

SOPS 29th Oct 2014 06:29

Shocking video of the enemy within. Some as young as six.

Shocking Video Of Muslim Children | 2GB

Pinky the pilot 29th Oct 2014 06:45


Am I the only one who is utterly amazed that anyone even remotely in the public eye would put anything even remotely controversial into an electronic document?
I have learned over the years never ever to underestimate the capacity for stupidity in some of the so called elite sections of the Australian society; political or otherwise.:ugh::*

Worrals in the wilds 29th Oct 2014 08:38

Sorry Para, no worries. It's an issue I get prickly about, partly because of large amount of self interest. :O

I agree with you Cooda. This has a Labar Pardy smell to it.
The story was broken by the NT News, so I smell Murdoch. Labor has nothing to gain by dissing an ALP Senator. I agree re the electronic communication, but Pinky's theory holds good. Likewise MPs who behave badly on F/book and Tweeter... WTF? :ugh:Much as I dislike the Murdoch empire, it's a legitimate public interest story and that's what the media are supposed to do. At least it makes a change from reality TV advertorial disguised as 'stories'.

I havn't kept up with the old nurses thing over the years, do they still do EN's and RN's?
They do. RNs go to uni and ENs do (I think?) a TAFE course. And fair point Andu, the same thing has happened in the entertainment industry with respect to stage hands and tech people. During the 1990s on the job training morphed into university degrees, which excluded a lot of people who were excellent workers but lacked the academic skills to get through the degree :sad:. That said, my sister is a uni trained RN and one of my best friends is a former hospital trained RN, and they both believe that the profession has become so specialised and skilled that it now really requires tertiary study. Anyway, that's just their opinion and I'm sure there are opposing POVs.

I think we should make all young people do real jobs for the first 10 years or so of theire life, then work out what they want and go to Uni if needed :E (joke).
That works for me :E:}. At least it would stem the tide of 21 year old 'project managers' whose previous construction experience is limited to lego blocks on the play mat. :rolleyes:

Takan Inchovit 29th Oct 2014 09:46

Although not so political, if Paul Gallen can receive a $50,000 fine for swearing in a tweet, then maybe the NRL should start running the Oz legal system. Wouldn't be much crime after that! ;)


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