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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

CoodaShooda 26th Mar 2014 12:47

The point I was hoping to make was that not too many people have any real idea about the Australian Honours, the order of merit and what it all means.

Knight/Dame are widely recognised terms and have equivalents in a large number of countries, not just England.

I don't have a problem with giving our truly deserving an internationally recognised title.

But I'd hate the see the system abused by another politician like Joh.

As to Dame Quentin, I was not a fan based on her media and past associations. However, CoodaKid 3 met her several times while at ADFA and was impressed by her. I'm now prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt, as #3 is not easily impressed.

Worrals in the wilds 26th Mar 2014 13:41


But I'd hate the see the system abused by another politician like Joh.
This is the problem with honours. You can't revoke them...:E
Now, I'm a born Queenslander (albeit a lefty one) and to me Sir Joh is still Sir Joh. Whatever wrongs he did, that is is title. If he had gone to jail that was still his title.

These honours can't easily be revoked, otherwise they are simply political, ephemeral and essentially meaningless. If they can't be granted in perpetuity then there's no point in granting them in the first place and we'd be better off coming up with a subjective system based on merit. If they can then there's always the risk of embarassing post conferment revelations that make the recipient seem a bit unworthy.

It's all a bit Jurassic, which is whyI wonder about it's sudden current affairs status. We're all talking/posting about it which makes me wonder; what else has happened that the government prefers we don't currently talk/ post about? What have we missed? :confused:

RJM 26th Mar 2014 13:44

Won't it just be the same system we have now, except that AO's will have Sir or Lady in front of their names as well as OA at the back? If so, I'd assume it would apply retrospectively to all the other AO's so far.

I tried out Sir ----- AO with my name and it sounds quite classy, so I'm looking forward to the change when my turn comes.

500N 26th Mar 2014 14:58

RJM

N, the AC - OAM are separate awards that will still be given.

Knight and Dame are above the highest (AC).


Now, not sure of you relinquish an AC, AO, AM etc when you become a Knight or a Dame. If you were an AM and gte upgraded in a later honours list to AC then you drop the AM and just become Joe Bloggs, AC.

That is unless you earned the AC as a military officer (ie in the Military division) but other awards you got were in the Civilian division.



Re the GG, I also gathered from military people that she was supportive and IMHO, the fact she went out to the back blocks of Afghanistan and stayed the night impressed me. Not the type of thing I expected her to do.
And it didn't worry me too much that she gave her "speech", I thought the timing could have been different but ever since HM The Queen have her speech to Parliament about our discussions on a republic showing Australia's maturity, nothing has bothered me.

I think General Cosgrove will be a different style !

500N 26th Mar 2014 15:11

Interesting article re the new awards and views on a republic.

Last paragraphs - Which to my mind reads, if a Pollie is involved in putting up an alternative, they will be very wary about it !!!


"'Young people generally are in favour of keeping our system … they are going to be very cautious about dispensing with it.''

Perhaps it's all little more than a distraction: the majority of respondents in UMR's poll said the issue was of little or no importance to them.




PM puts sword to a republic with reintroduction of knights and dames

MTOW 26th Mar 2014 16:18

War in Australia (any Oz Politics)
 
I'd be more comfortable with the K&D business if they stuck strictly to the "reserved for those who had not sought office but were appointed" clause - but we know that's going to slip. Many on the Left feel the Libs will slip one to John Howard As for the comments that such honours cannot be revoked, didn't the Brits revoke the Knighthood of the Queen's elderly arts advisor after it proven he'd been a long term Russian spy, one of the Philby/McLean group. Was it Blunt?

MTOW 26th Mar 2014 16:20

War in Australia (any Oz Politics)
 
Sir Anthony Blunt rings a bell.

500N 26th Mar 2014 16:35

Funny how you mentioned John Howard. He was mentioned when it was announced.

Not sure it is right for him, he has a very very exclusive award already from the Queen.

And being a pollie, I don't think it would go down right if he did get it,
deserved or not.

500N 26th Mar 2014 21:20

Interesting that Howard has now come out and said he disagrees with the K&D's and that he probably wouldn't accept one himself.

Interesting.

bosnich71 26th Mar 2014 21:54

Worrals .... "she didn't dismiss the government" ..... perhaps that is what she should have done.
And yes she was hypocritical to take on a job that she personally didn't think was needed in Australia.

500N 26th Mar 2014 21:57

" And yes she was hypocritical to take on a job that she personally didn't think was needed in Australia."

Two jobs

She was GG of Qld as well !

Pinky the pilot 27th Mar 2014 03:02


This is the problem with honours. You can't revoke them...
Respectfully disagree, Worrals. As I recall, Terence Lewis the former Queensland Police Commissioner had his Knighthood revoked, did he not?

chuboy 27th Mar 2014 03:13

For those who might be interested, here's a screenshot of an article the Daily Telegraph removed from their website recently, in which TA ruled out reinstating knights and dames :confused:

http://i.imgur.com/HQ4BSLR.jpg

500N 27th Mar 2014 03:22

Interesting :rolleyes:

Some discussion around about bringing back some of the old imperial military awards, which I agree with. Would love to see the GC, MC, DSO, DSC, MM etc reinstated.

Ken Borough 27th Mar 2014 04:53

Pinky,

I think Worrals meant that an honor cannot be revoked because you disagree with its award. AFAIK there are provisions for 'honored personages' to surrender their awards, or have them revoked, if they bring the Order into disrepute. That's what happened to Lewis, and I can name one or two others who have had to return their gongs and who could no longer use the post-nominal.

500N

Australia is a proud and independent nation. At least it was the last time I checked. That being so, why should we have ANY form of foreign honours, as are the Imperial system/collection of the United Kingdom? It's time to move on: we've been autonomous for more than 113 years.

500N 27th Mar 2014 05:08

Ken

Quite a few military people like the old medals, a lot of history went into them and people know what they are.

As one person said, walk into an RSL with an MC or a DSO and everyone knows what it is. Not so for the Star of Courage etc.

That's all.

Worrals in the wilds 27th Mar 2014 05:17

Nah Pinky was right, though thanks for the thought.
I forgot about Terry Lewis. TBQH it's been so long since most of them have been seen outside their nursing homes that I forgot the rules. :\

Former PM John Howard says return to Knights and Dames anachronistic | News.com.au
There's a quote in there from Andrew Laming saying that people can refuse the honour.

Personally I think that if even John Howard thinks it's old fashioned then it's a questionable decision. I haven't talked to anyone yet who's in favour of it; has anyone else?

Ken Borough 27th Mar 2014 05:33

500N

Give it time. The 'New Order' always takes time to get used to. I bet all of those who have served in the ADF since the 1990s know exactly the Aussie awards are etc etc. After all, many of them are recipients. Let the old blokes at the RSL live in the past for the younger generations would be just as familiar with, or not more so, the Order of Australia as they are with Imperial awards. Time to move on!

Worrals,

The other night a well known fuddy-duddy and strident supporter of the Monarchy, Flint, was on the ABC waxing lyrical about the reintroduction of knighthoods. I sure that Bruce Ruxton, were he alive, would also concur.

CoodaShooda 27th Mar 2014 05:36


I haven't talked to anyone yet who's in favour of it; has anyone else?
We move in different circles. :}

Quite a few of us up here think it better to give our mob internationally recognized titles, if we're going to give them anything - but not to the point of barons, earls and dukes.

I guess we could always call our top awardees chevaliers or shoguns or Boss Man. Mr/Mrs.... AC doesn't mean much to most. Sir/Dame.... AK (?) is a recognized brand.

But, frankly, we don't really give a toss.

Pinky the pilot 27th Mar 2014 05:42


Let the old farts at the RSL
Ease up a bit, Ken. I actually find that comment a little offensive.:=


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