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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

Buster Hyman 16th Aug 2012 14:15


MattGray 16th Aug 2012 14:51

Denial is not a river in Egypt.

As every smoker knows, one of the worst things about the tobacco habit is the smell – it clings to you no matter what you do. That's the problem the Liberal Party now has. They've been in the pocket of the tobacco lobby for so long that they can't shake off the stink, no matter how hard they try.

The Liberal Party's last-minute turnaround on plain packaging of cigarettes, after much huffing and puffing, won't help them escape from the clutches of the tobacco companies who fill their party coffers. The question for Mr Abbott is: when will he kick the habit of taking money from the tobacco companies?

Andu 16th Aug 2012 22:27

So Matt, are your last two offerings the best that your Sussex Street focus groups could come up with? Anything but answer any one of the questions put to you?

Re the refugees: no one's denying that wars create refugees. However, your (in this case, very poor) attempt to obfuscate falls flat for two reasons:

1. These people aren't refugees - they're country-shoppers. The Palestinians who featured in recent newspaper stories lived for some years in Syria, not because they were forced to, but (like many thousands of Palestinians throughout the whole of the Middle East) because they CHOSE to work in relative comfort as expatriate workers in another Arab country, and when the country of their choice was affected by the horribly misnamed "Arab Spring", they didn't choose to return to their home country, which they were free to do, which is not at war - except when they CHOOSE to lob a rocket or a suicide bomber at their neighbour - but instead, had a look at living in Cyprus, but the government handouts there either stopped or weren't sufficient to maintain the good life, so they CHOSE to travel halfway around the ****ing world to a country that the country-shopper grapevine assured them was both the softest touch in town AND incredibly, stupidly overgenerous in its handouts for life. The real refugees are poor, baggy-arsed individuals being kicked further and further down the waiting queues by relatively well-off people like the many arriving on the daily scheduled service from Java to Christmas Island. You know, the one with good connections with EK356, the direct Boeing 777 service from Dubai.

2. The countries these "refugees" CHOOSE to "FLEE" to are the very same hated(?) countries who sent troops to "invade" their nations. Don't you find that, from all the countries they might choose to live, they CHOOSE to "flee, in fear for their lives" to the very nation(s) that invaded theirs? Not that very many of these country-shoppers actually come from countries that the West has recently "invaded". Many of the so-called Afghanis coming ere are actually Pakistanis pretending - that's LYING - to be Afghanis.

Your focus groups need to put a bit - make that a LOT - more work into their efforts to de-rail the debate, Matt.

CoodaShooda 16th Aug 2012 23:08


Are you sure Matt isn't a liberal party supporter pushing a labor party line in a way that discourages most of us from thinking positively about labor? :E

By the way, Matt, wasn't there a story in the last couple of years about labor chasing Big Tobacco for donations?

Meanwhile the NT election campaign drags on with the current "highlight" being the Chief Minister's deputy chief of staff being stood down for trying to monster the NT News into pulling a story on a candidate's conviction for criminal violence. Seems to me that not having to continue working on the campaign while continuing to draw a $208,000 salary is not much of a punishment.

Local cartoonist Wicking has been drawing Chief Minister Henderson in a maids uniform since he did a deal with the local independent to hold power at the last election. With the brouhaha over the deputy chief of staff, Wicking has now added a clown's nose, which this morning's cartoon suggests may become a permanent fixture.

Wicking used to be a supporter of the left but has moved away from them since labor took power in 2001.

If there proves to be a swing against labor at the election, I think it can be put down to a combination of Wicking's influence and sending a message to Canberra. There's nothing else happening in this otherwise beige, inept and incompetent campaign by both sides to excite the electorate one way or the other.

500N 16th Aug 2012 23:15

"By the way, Matt, wasn't there a story in the last couple of years about labor chasing Big Tobacco for donations?"


NT Politics, where nothing gets done by either side
and no one can criticize anything to do with Aboriginies
for fear of being called a racist !

BandAide 17th Aug 2012 00:26

The purpose for the presence of Western troops in Afghanistan is to prevent a safe haven for organized terrorism and provide Afghanis with a framework for self-government.

Most of the cost and loss of life on our parts has been to achieve the latter, and I, too, question the efficacy of continuing that effort.

Terms like 'fiendish invasion' as used by MattGray are misrepresentative, intentionally, I think.

500N 17th Aug 2012 00:32

Matt seems to chop and change his angle of attack / discussion
to suit who he wants to stir up. I gave up reading his posts.

Just my HO.

EffohX 17th Aug 2012 01:17

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
Indonesian crew escape in 'rescued' vessel
BY: PAIGE TAYLOR From: The Australian August 17, 2012 12:00AM

THE Indonesian crew of an asylum boat that sparked a massive rescue effort left rescuers shocked when they sailed off in the boat that the Australian Maritime Safety Authority had believed was stricken.
Merchant vessel Maersk Diadema was responding to a mayday call from AMSA on Monday when it steamed towards the asylum boat about 70 nautical miles southwest of Bali. AMSA, in turn, was responding to distress calls from someone onboard the asylum boat.
Question for you Matt: do you have just the teensiest suspicion that someone might be taking the piss here?

And if so, who do you think might be the "piss-ee" and who the "piss-er"?

I wonder is ASIS has access to the phone calls or messages that went between the captain of the bulk carrier and his company in the hours leading up to the decision that the ship should go to Christmas Island? My guess would be that he was INSTRUCTED by senior management to minimise the commercial cost to the company by avoiding a lengthy standoff in Singapore Harbour with 67 "survivors" refusing to disembark. If this can be proven, the company should be billed for the cost of the whole sorry erercise by Australia.

eagle 86 17th Aug 2012 01:31

mg must have been his kindy teacher's delight- cutting and pasting in his little exercise book for hours on end.

Ovation 17th Aug 2012 01:34

Matt must be losing track of his subscriptions, having posted a spray about TA in the Big Tobacco thread, and now posting a spray linking TA to Big Tobacco in this thread. Maybe we need to gently re-focus Matt towards his boss (Julia) and have him refute allegations of criminal behaviour made by Larry Pickering.

The ALP having done back flip on Asylum seekers have now instructed their stooges to herald praise upon the ALP for their success in the High Court on plain packaging, and link TA as negatively as possible.

"By the way, Matt, wasn't there a story in the last couple of years about labor chasing Big Tobacco for donations?"
Yes, follow the links to a current thread:

MG linking TA to Big Tobacco

Ovation linking ALP front and centre to Tobacco Donations

500N 17th Aug 2012 01:49

Matt dreams of cuddling up to Joolia and being mothered by her !

Buster Hyman 17th Aug 2012 01:51

Matt dreams of cuddling up to Joolia and being mothered by her !
Too late. Tony Windsor's read Pickerings post & has realised that Juliars a goer...so he's putting his hand up for the "front bench"...

500N 17th Aug 2012 01:54

Tony Windsor on the front bench while Matt being breast fed on her lap.

Not a pretty sight !


500N 17th Aug 2012 04:10

Here come the boats trying to beat the new laws
"Four boats carrying 191 suspected asylum seekers have been intercepted in the last 24 hours in Australian waters as people smuggler's stare down the Gillard Government's tough new immigration laws. Three boats with a total of 128 passengers were discovered off the West Australian coast yesterday evening while 63 suspected asylum seekers were found to have made it to shore in the Cocos Islands.

Ovation 17th Aug 2012 04:15

Just read this on Larry Pickering's blog, which explains why Matt's employer is running dead on the accusations being published. Instituting legal action to silence Pickering would simply let the Genie out of the bottle, and there's plenty of dirty laundry the public would be keen to know about. This issue is not going to die and go away, and assures me there's little chance Gillard will be allowed lead the ALP to defeat in the next election.

From Pickering:

Gillard’s involvement and financial gain from the client accounts she established contrary to union rules as a partner in Slater & Gordon, the law firm the AWU engaged to protect its interests.

In the event that Gillard et al commenced a legal action under the uniform defamation laws. Any legal action commenced by Gillard et al would necessitate discovery in response.

Gillard etc al would have to make the case that there was no truth to the allegations made. Clearly there IS truth- public records including the Victorian Government Hansard, police records, the call for a Royal Commission by McClelland (ALP) as well as the many affadavits and various other police and public statements evidence ample proof of Gillard’s involvement and demonstrate that there IS truth. Gillard herself and Slater and Gordon have indicated there is truth to the allegations.Gillard’s only defence has been the ‘young and naive’ defence.Given Gillard was a 35 year old + politically astute lawyer and partner in her client’s law firm, Slater & Gordon, makes such a claim a nonsense.

Gillard et al could possibly argue the matters are not in the public interest. However, this would hold little water for a public figure. The High Court’s Lange case established the latter.

So what exactly would Gillard et al’s legal claim be against those printing and commenting on the allegations of illegal dealings? Would it be in Gillard’s self-interest to start and action which would immediately result in full discovery in a public trial of all documents on this matter? The challenge has been sent out by various media and publications now for that very reason – action against those publications/media would ensure their immediate commencement of court ordered discovery of all documentation pertaining to the allegations.
For those that may not be familiar with the law, "discovery" requires the production and disclosure of all relevant documents (by either party) that would be relevant to the matter before the court.

parties to a Supreme Court of Victoria civil dispute are required to discover all documents that may “fairly lead [the party] to a train of inquiry which may contain information that may … either directly or indirectly enable the party requiring discovery to advance his own case or to damage the case of his adversary”.
And if a party tries to be a bit uncooperative:

The Supreme Court Rules provide a range of sanctions and enforcement mechanisms to reduce noncompliance with and/or abuse of discovery rules, including a variety of sanctions for the abuse of discovery rules.

Dark Knight 17th Aug 2012 06:39

`nine boats carrying 534 people arriving since Monday'

That is a lot of policy failures; I thought Julia said it is all over and now Labor have a fix?

500N 17th Aug 2012 07:35

Because Howard did everything with such conviction,
they believed him.

No one believes Joolia and her band of merry men and
all the hangers on, do gooders and such like as they leave
too many gaps to be taken advantage of.

Fubaar 17th Aug 2012 07:56

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

FOUR asylum-seeker boats have been intercepted in less than 24 hours as people-smugglers try to convince desperate clients they can beat the Gillard government's new offshore processing regime.

But it's likely the 191 new arrivals will be processed on Nauru and Papua New Guinea's Manus Island, along with another 279 asylum-seekers to have arrived since Labor's new offshore processing regime was announced on Monday.

Home Affairs Minister Jason Clare today confirmed the interception of four asylum-seeker boats carrying 63, 57, 40 and 31 people respectively. Three the boats were intercepted yesterday, while a fourth made it to the Cocos Islands.
At this rate, Manus and Nauru will be over capacity by the end of next week.

allan907 17th Aug 2012 11:53

Well, at least we know where some of the contributors to this thread hang out. It's just as well as their contributions make as much sense.


Andu 17th Aug 2012 22:27

At this rate, Manus and Nauru will be over capacity by the end of next week.
Correct. Before a single "guest" arrives there. Without TPVs and a blanket refusal by Australia to accept passengers/"survivors" (call them what you will) picked up inside the Indonesian SARZ, this will, (as Gillard and Co surely knew from the start), turn into a "badminton" farce, with the people smugglers simply overwhelming the new holding facilities with numbers.

The old "Yes Minister" truism holds true. ("You don't hold an enquiry unless you know the answer beforehand.") I believe Angus Houston delivered exactly the report he was asked to deliver by Gillard, so that Gillard could "graciously" back down without any real loss of face and then be in a perfect position to sabotage the Manus/Nauru "solution" so that she could then say: "See, AbbottAbbottAbbott was wrong."

And the ARCH HYPOCRITE KRudd says that he makes no apologies for the current (no) border protection mess because he had "a specific mandate from the people" to dismantle the Pacific Solution in 2007 and he could not "continue to have children behind razor wire".

Errrr.... Kev, fair shake of the sauce bottle. When you took power in 2007, there were no children behind any damned wire, with just six people in detention. Hearing him on the radio this morning, I had forgotten how much I hated sound of that smug, self-satisfied voice.

Meanwhile, (you couldn't make this up), Capt Emad has announced he wants to come back to Oz to clear his name.

SOPS 17th Aug 2012 23:27

Just a quick question, because I forget, what does a TPV do or should it be prevent?

EffohX 18th Aug 2012 00:05

New offshore processing regime bars appeal on asylum
by: Chris Merritt and Lauren Wilson
From:The Australian
August 18, 201212:00AM
JULIA Gillard's new offshore processing regime has effectively locked asylum-seekers out of Australian court appeals, legal experts declared yesterday, as four boats arrived in 24 hours in a rush to beat the new laws.
Human rights lawyers said the new offshore processing regime had stripped back the capacity for judicial review of government decisions and eliminated many of the grounds for legal challenges by boatpeople.
That'll put a dent in Julian Burnside's law firm's taxpayer-funded bottom line. I await the screams of outrage.


SOPS, a Temporary Protection Visa allows someone fleeing halfway around the world from persecution to live in Australia, milk the Australian welfare system for all it's worth while here, but, importantly, not be able to bring all the family out to join the person on the TPV under the family reunion provisions fully-fledged "refugees" have been doing for many years now.

It also implies by the first word in its title that the person will return to the country he or she fled from when it becomes safe to do so. However, many of not most will do their best during their stay here to marry, have an "anchor baby" or by any other means convince an appeal court that they have made a life here and should be allowed to stay. When these were introduced by the Howard government some years ago, it brought about a change in the passenger lists on the asylum seeker boats - young single males no longer dominated such lists, but whole families came together to circumvent the TPVs.

Clare Prop 18th Aug 2012 01:24

OK, it's Wiki but...

Temporary protection visa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One thing about it was that a TPV holder, if they popped home for a holiday to the country they fled from, they couldn't come back to Australia.

Its actually the case that a lot of (non-refugee) legal permanent residents have to apply for resident return visas if they leave the country too.

Ovation 18th Aug 2012 02:05

The stench just will not go away....

Revealed: Julia Gillard lost her job after law firm's secret investigation

From: The Australian August 18, 2012 12:00AM

JULIA Gillard left her job as a partner with law firm Slater & Gordon as a direct result of a secret internal probe in 1995 into controversial work she had done for her then boyfriend, a union boss accused of corruption, The Weekend Australian can reveal.

Nick Styant-Browne, a former equity partner of the firm, broke a 17-year silence yesterday to reveal that the firm's probe included a confidential formal interview with the Prime Minister - then an industrial lawyer - on September 11, 1995, which was "recorded and transcribed".

prospector 18th Aug 2012 02:12

Someone, I wonder who? is spending a lot of time, and no doubt someone elses money, trying to keep Larry Pickering Post away from the many enquiring people who have been following this story of malfeasance by some very well known people.

Larry's team appears to be winning though, always manage to keep up with the latest post's.

Andu 18th Aug 2012 07:41

and no doubt someone else's money
Why do I think that it might be my (the taxpayer's) money being used to do this?

Buster Hyman 18th Aug 2012 08:53

Why do I think that it might be my (the taxpayer's) money being used to do this?
What a ridiculous statement!:=

It's all on Craig Thomsons credit card!

Clare Prop 18th Aug 2012 12:02

I've always reckoned the reason Thomson has been let off so lightly is because he knows too much stuff.

Maybe including the stuff that Pickering has got hold of?

Hypothetically what if an "independant" could be in a position where they could blackmail the government? Would that be enough to wake the GG from her stupor? :confused:

parabellum 18th Aug 2012 12:10

The Gillard dismissal etc. made the Channel Nine news tonight, metioned the money, Gillard has said she did no wrong!

MattGray 18th Aug 2012 13:11

You couldn't make it up.

Pickering is now channelling sisemen - from Feb 2012

”She's going to be out of there, I reckon she's got about maybe two or three weeks left, but we're waiting on FOI stuff from the coppers,” he said.

Mr Pickering forecast Ms Gillard’s departure from the Prime Ministership within a matter of weeks, saying he was waiting on some ‘explosive’ material from the police which he would obtain under Freedom of Information laws. 3AW
Riiiight! :rolleyes:

Ooooh look! Pickering's website has now unfortunately gone down.

And just as he was finally about to reveal all to the gullible party faithful who have hung on every word - and my Lord hasn't there been plenty of both.

Never mind the quality, feel the width as the saying goes.

Derryn Hinch has described it as akin to ‘Days of Our Lives’. Even Larry himself admits it is written with ‘a bit of licence’

Never mind - website down - proof positive of a massive conspiracy.

Can't wait for the Sunday tabloids.

Buster Hyman 18th Aug 2012 13:13


500N 18th Aug 2012 14:12

"The Gillard dismissal etc. made the Channel Nine news tonight, metioned the money, Gillard has said she did no wrong!"

Well she's not exactly going to hang herself is she ?:O

This whole Gov't is a joke - Asylum Seekers, Gillard and her past,
the Speaker saga, Carbon Tax, you name it.

I'll give her a month, and that's only because Labor needs to find someone else
and I think that might be part of the problem, no one else wants to put the hangman's noose around their neck knowing for sure the floor will open !


hellsbrink 18th Aug 2012 15:25

But that's the thing.

When you know you have a very high chance of being crushed in an election, no matter what MattTBar likes to say, would you replace "the boss" knowing that the replacement would catch all the flak for losing?

Would you be so "young and naive" to believe that the sheeple would forgive you because you are not "Julia or Kevin"?

(Julia or Kevin. That sounds almost as bad as what is "written" on the green strips of the hoolies' cars. Sorry, I didn't mean that)

RJM 18th Aug 2012 21:13

Gillard and co have conditioned us to such a low standard of government competence and integrity that when we get a half decent government we won't know ourselves...

RJM 18th Aug 2012 21:14

Nice shot of Bob Katter, btw, Buster.

500N 18th Aug 2012 21:18


Their is a precedent - Labor in the early 80's, John Cain kicked out, no one wanted the job (or no male wanted the job) and Joan Kirner took it on - and in my opinion didn't make a bad job of it at the time.

Still lost to Kennett but she did it.

Andu 18th Aug 2012 21:58

Another boat.

prospector 18th Aug 2012 22:15

Ooooh look! Pickering's website has now unfortunately gone down.

And bounced back up again, a number of times.

Why is there such an effort to shut it down?? is it that truth hurts??

alisoncc 18th Aug 2012 22:18

Reckon the best form of government is that of a "benign dictatorship modified by assassination". Looking for volunteers. Anything has to be better than Gillard, Abbott or the chlorophyll party. Looking back over the last 25 years, since first taking an interest, can't think of any one of them I would want back. Turnbull could make a reasonable crack at it. Thinks best of a bad bunch and that's from all, and I mean all, at the palace in Canberra.

500N 19th Aug 2012 00:56

Regardless of Politics, Howard and Costello made a pretty good fist of it
- you don't run Gov't that long on just luck, you had to do some things right
in terms of fiscal policy.

Didn't like what he did with guns but that's a personal view.

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