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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

Captain Sand Dune 11th Feb 2014 06:10

I think you are on very shaky ground having a shot at Julian Burnside - a more decent man you wouldn't find.
Does lot of pro bono stuff, does he?

There is something radically wrong with our visa issuing processes. How can an apparent non-English speaker secure a student visa to attend an Australian university?
Too right. It seems governments of both sides have ignored this. Of course people like Julian Burnside would say that an Australian visa is a oomin right.

bosnich71 11th Feb 2014 08:33

Regards students studying in Australia who have a limited, if any, grasp of English. Some years ago there was case in Melbourne where an overseas student shot dead a number of people at R.M.I.T.
In news reports at the time it was stated that he was in his third year of an economics degree so would , presumably, have passed the first two years. Given that most economic "experts" can't even begin to agree with each other HTF does someone pass two years of a degree course at an Australian seat of higher education without speaking English ? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/confused.gif

SOPS 11th Feb 2014 08:44

A quick google says that the shooter was from Hong Kong, so there is a very good chance he spoke English. our Lebanese mate, however, does not. (FWIW, the shooter is still under care in a psychiatric institution )

chuboy 11th Feb 2014 09:08

Most of the international students who were studying engineering with me at uni had limited-at-best grasps of english. The writing was horrible to read, but most of them passed because they studied in like groups (or knew a bilingual local) and so were able to communicate the content in their own language.

I'm sorry to say I don't think you stand a chance of seeing it go away either seeing as international full fee-paying students are one our biggest 'exports' at the moment. It's very much a case of money talking and you certainly won't see the universities advocating for stricter controls on how well our overseas students must speak English before they can enrol.

Fliegenmong 11th Feb 2014 09:25

How did it get to be such an 'export' Chuboy??:hmm:

Many many years ago it was free??...Like it is today if you are an 'indigenous' Australian?

Co-incidentally I'm an indigenous Australian....just not a black one....or partial shade thereof... :rolleyes:

chuboy 11th Feb 2014 09:39

One wonders... either way it's an export now and it's not doing a great deal of harm, in principle anyway. That is to say, the events with the Lebanese student could have taken place just as easily had he entered this country on any other type of visa. Meanwhile, our friends from Singapore/Malaysia/China/HK who come for a few years, sort of manage to submit a few assignments and graduate, paying top dollar for their education and housing, then leave ought not to be punished for the actions of another.

Ken Borough 11th Feb 2014 09:39


Education is similar to inbound tourism. They are regarded as 'exports' as they bring money into the country, just like the rocks we sell to China.

On a side-note, if these students don't speak fluent English, that must be an unwanted burden to the lecturers and even disadvantages/slows down those native English speakers. Employers of such graduates would also need to be very careful as it's logical to suspect that if a person has a degree from an Australian university, it would be natural to assume said bloke or blokess had a good grasp of oral and written English. WTF are we doing to ourselves?

Fliegenmong 11th Feb 2014 10:16

Yes Ken I do understand that.....'mayhaps' I did not use enough sarcasm, the point being, plenty of our own cannot afford that which we sell off to the highest bidder from...foreign shores....we seem to have this fixation of not looking after our own....being it denying them an education because of financial circumstances, or by reducing the conditions of life long taxpayers to fund the 'boaties'......but only need look at our pool fence laws, our WHS laws, our insistence of closing down major national highways so an 'accident investigation' crew can take some pictures......indeed the farcical comments from 'Operational' Morrison regarding sending some the most undesirable back....shall I go on :ugh:

500N 11th Feb 2014 10:21


"our insistence of closing down major national highways so an 'accident investigation' crew can take some pictures......"

Agree re this. And they seem to take quite a while sometimes to get it open again.
Never seems to be a sense of urgency even at rush hour !

What do you mean by this ?
"indeed the farcical comments from 'Operational' Morrison regarding sending some the most undesirable back...." ???????

As a whole, we seem to suffer from WASP disease which is always apologising and trying to be friends with everyone by providing money to those we perceive as not as well off.

chuboy 11th Feb 2014 10:31

Well in fairness Flieg you can still study an undergraduate degree so long as you meet academic requirements for entry and put that on HECS, which is more or less free. And AFAIK international students don't displace domestic ones.

I wouldn't say having them in class was a burden on the lecturer but it certainly made for frustrating group work! Although I wouldn't like to be the tutor who has to mark some of those written assignments either... :p

The majority don't compete for jobs as graduates because their study visa doesn't entitle them to work here after graduation (besides, Australian degrees will not fool anyone if they can't write in English). Where they do find work is in restaurants where owners trying to save a buck wherever they can will normally employ international students exclusively and then pay them $8-10/hr off the books.

Fliegenmong 11th Feb 2014 10:42

500, I meant this....

"SOPS, what blew me away was Scott Morrison saying that the 26 Lebanese, here on a student visa, MAY be deported over this. May???? WTF??? I know Morrison is limited in what he can say until the process of the law is followed through its many steps to a conclusion, but "may" be deported"

They are the Government, they can introduce legislation...it could get blocked, but they are in a position to at least introduce change.

And by 'Operational', I mean it is going to get used forever and a day now, by the next Labor government as well, they'll use it to hide behind their next lot of failures......the word 'Mandate' comes to mind...

Clare Prop 11th Feb 2014 13:37

For a Student Pilot Licence they must be able to speak English and provide evidence of this, graduating from an Australian university isn't good enough proof! Now I see why.

Airey Belvoir 11th Feb 2014 14:23

Still bloody difficult when all you hear is "所有站诺瑟姆。格罗FZW free fahsan feet 在方法 Won an Hill" and you know that if you're at or about 3,000 ft in the vicinity of Wongan Hills you need to keep a bloody good lookout.

500N 11th Feb 2014 15:25



But it had become a bloody media circus how it was and needed to change.
The AS news cycle was run by the media, not the Gov't.

Worrals in the wilds 11th Feb 2014 20:36

Most of the international students who were studying engineering with me at uni had limited-at-best grasps of english. The writing was horrible to read,
Oooh yeah. I did some post grad stuff with a bunch of these guys, and while they were ready and willing to learn (or at least get the piece of paper :E) some of them were pretty borderline academically. Reading their writing got easier when you realised how much of it was cribbed from Wikipedia :hmm:.

However, the universities are doing very nicely out of it (foreign students pay big dollars) and the goverment is also doing very nicely out of it, as foreign students aren't Commonwealth supported like locals. They don't take places from local students as they're not part of the CSP quota, so if anything they benefit local students with the money they inject into the institutions.

Many of them are seriously wealthy so the local economy is also doing very nicely out of it, with their parents often paying cash for apartments, cars, local tutors and pocket money for living expenses (none of which is spent on alcohol of course, and I'm sure the letters home follow the 'Dear mother, I am studying hard, praying every day and following the dietary restrictions of our faith' pro-forma, even as they're wolfing down Bacon Whoppers to get over the hangover from the night before :}:}:}). As chuboy also points out, the local under-the -radar casual economy is also benefiting from the less wealthy students, particularly when very few of them understand their workplace rights. :uhoh:

While this dipstick is obviously not an asset to Australia or anywhere else, the vast majority of foreign students are fairly harmless, wealthy kids whose parents can afford to send them here to study. Barring the odd hangover and swimming mis-adventure :(, IME they generally have a good work ethic and are more goal focussed than many local students, which often compensates for their lack of English skills. Many learn English in the three years they are here (albeit with an Australian flavour which may not have been what their parents hoped for :}) and return to their home countries with a good degree, language skills and fond memories of their time in Australia. Don't judge the many by the misdeeds of a couple.

Actually IME they're a lot less trouble on campus than some of the former student ratbag brigade I shared a campus with in the 1990s, though of course some of them are now members of parliament :ooh::}.

I know Morrison is limited in what he can say until the process of the law is followed through its many steps to a conclusion, but "may" be deported"
And that's where you're on the money. He hasn't been found guilty yet. Mitigating circumstances (if any) haven't been aired. In other words there's a process that still has to be followed. However unlikely, if either of those things occur then Morrison would look pretty dorky had he made a bunch of sweeping statements. He's a pollie and he gave a classic pollie's answer. There hasn't been a verdict yet.

That was my point Ken. How the hell can someone who does not speak English, get a student visa in the first place? Fraudulent is a word that comes to mind.
This has been the dark side of the lucrative 'foreign student' industry. Some institutions (not all) have been doing very well by enrolling full fee paying international students, and sometimes the selection criteria get a little stretched. It's a variation on the Bachelor of Basket-Weaving phenomenon, but when you add the fact that foreign students risk having their study visa revoked if they don't pass (thence losing the university all that lovely full-paying fee money) the institution may come under pressure from its bean-counters to make sure there aren't too many fails, even when twelve students submit exactly the same assignment :hmm:.

500N 11th Feb 2014 20:40

Interesting re students. On my course, Chisholm / Monash Uni, Caulfield campus, mid to late 80's, I can't remember any students that couldn't speak English and we had a wide range of cultures / ethnicity.

That didn't apply to parents of said students as I remember calling up one lady who I was doing a joint study with and the parents couldn't speak any English
and they had been here 20+ years.

So obviously things have changed.

Worrals in the wilds 11th Feb 2014 21:04

There's been a massive change. When I did my primary degree in the 1990s there were only a handful of foreign students, mainly on exchange from other universities. When I went back in the mid 2000s uni was a very different place with shoals of international undergrads and nominal post-grads (normally with work experience criteria rather than degrees, not that there's anything wrong with that, lots of local post-grads are the same). I then did several undergrad science subjects at one of the bigger Queensland universities, and I reckon fully a third of each enrolment were full-fee paying international students. Depending on the course and the institution the percentage can be much higher.

It's changed the face of uni campuses dramatically, for better and for worse. For the better; they're Mostly Harmless, generally kids/young adults who want to work hard, get a degree, maybe make some 'exotic foreign' friends (we are foreign to other people ;)) and go home. There's a lot less goofing off, absenteeism, pranking and general misbehaviour than there was in the ol' days. Also, the institutions have had to offer value for money, because the foreign students don't cop fails on the chin. They appeal. They don't accept marking downgrades because they wouldn't put out for the creepy professor, and that used to happen a lot. :*

For the worse; IME the academic standard has suffered, particularly in the B grade institutions. Lecturers are more fearful of failing students than they used to be. In some ways this is a good thing (it used to be extremely arbitrary ) but it also means that sub-standard work is more likely to be passed to keep the peace with management.

Also, I don't think it's done much for campus life. Degrees have become a commodity, and that doesn't leave so much room for socialising, community activities or (shock, horror :}) student politics. Most of the student unions and political organizations from both right and left wing are shadows of their former selves, because international students don't care. Why would they? They're going home after graduating, so Australian politics is of little interest. Also, many of them come from countries where political discussion is actively discouraged.

The universities were big sources of politicians from both sides of politics, and where many people got their first taste of political activism. If you look at the biographies of current MPs from both Liberal and Labor, many of them started getting active at uni. While that gave us a class of professional pollies and arguably started the rot within modern politics, there is now a bit of a vacuum that hasn't been replaced by grass-roots political activities.

CoodaShooda 11th Feb 2014 22:39

It took be me 15 minutes (it might have been 30 - but no more) to put it in. Throw in an hour's travelling time each way and the tradie might have been in order to call it $400 for labor, say $650 in total for the job. But $1565? On that job, that trade's business model suffered the same fate as the Toyota workers - because he was so incredibly over the top greedy, he ended up with nothing. If he'd have quoted a fair price, and not damn near three times what I consider would have been a fair price for the job, he would have got the job. Instead, I did it myself.
It's not necessarily greed that's driving the price. At the moment, the construction industry is entering its traditional 14 year cyclical downturn. While some contractors are doing well, others are really scratching and the really desperate are undercutting the market to buy jobs.

It may be that your son approached some who are doing well and they had little interest in doing the job. They will always give a heavily inflated price.

Alternatively, your costing model needs to take into account the contribution to the tradie's wages and allowances plus the cost maintaining premises (rent/mortgage and outgoings); plus SGC, PAYG, FBT and possibly Payroll Tax; plus Company Tax; plus the cost of administrative support including book keeper/accountant, office equipment, telephone, internet etc; plus the cost of providing and maintaining the trade's vehicle; plus the cost of maintaining a mandated OH&S plan; plus the cost of maintaining other required licenses and permits from Commonwealth, State and Local governments; plus the time spent in sourcing and collecting the gate; plus a commercially viable profit margin to justify why you are in business. In the current climate, 10% is the target but is not being achieved.

This is by no means an exhaustive list but does help illustrate why doing business in Australia is not cheap.

Ken Borough 12th Feb 2014 02:40

Politicians being fast and loose with the truth do little to enhance their reputations. Is it any wonder we have little respect for most of them? Abbott crucified Gillard for a purported lie but she has nothing on our current political masters. :E

Joe Hockey, Toyota at odds whether union to blame for car maker's closure

7x7 12th Feb 2014 04:02

Sorry Ken, but you won't get many here agreeing with you on that particular point. Toyota management have to live with the unions running (or should that be ruining?) their work force until 2017. The last thing they're going to do is tell the unpalatable truth to the media at this time.

My guess would be that a senior Toyota manager will drop a 'tell all' bombshell about the role the unions played in Toyota's demise in Australia after the doors have closed on their Australian production line. It'll probably be done at some Rotary Club luncheon or maybe the National Press Club. Maybe even a newspaper article.

But until then, keeping the peace will be management's catch phrase. I wouldn't put it past the union bosses to pull a *** strike or some 'work to rules' bull***t if someone in management says the wrong thing.

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