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EffohX 11th Aug 2012 22:25

Mach Turtle: I have to agree with you in part about Pickering's offerings. If he has such damning - and more importantly, verifiable - evidence against Gillard, why the not quite daily drip feed approach? Spell it out in one and tell it all.

hellsbrink 11th Aug 2012 22:40

If he has such damning - and more importantly, verifiable - evidence against Gillard, why the not quite daily drip feed approach? Spell it out in one and tell it all.
Spit it all out and things can be done to brush it under the carpet quickly by "directing" people's attention to something else (a bit like Matt constantly talking about how the sky hasn't fallen because of the Carbon Tax whilst everyone talks about the regular ferries to Christmas Island).

Drip feed it and things cannot be hidden in the same way, more people around who have read it and might be willing to ask questions.

Is one possibility

Mach Turtle 11th Aug 2012 23:50

I want to believe, too, but unless he comes up with a meaningful document or an attributed quote soon, he probably has nothing.

He's not even attributing things to "anonymous sources" or "people close to the situation" yet.

parabellum 12th Aug 2012 00:08

Since Tony's Great Big Toxic Tax scare has fallen flat on its face, the True Blue Believers have SFA to fall back on, save lowering themselves into the gutter and clinging like drowning men to the straw of Pickering smears which are fast going nowhere!
Not quite. Our rates increase this year is eleven percent, five percent due to the carbon tax on landfill, waste collection charges are up forty percent, same reasons given by the shire office. All rural area expect to be hit in a similar fashion. If you don't believe the carbon tax is hurting then you are on a different planet.

Captain Sand Dune 12th Aug 2012 00:22

Planet Labour is a wonderful place I hear!:E

Pickering's writing style is appalling.
I dont think he's angling for a literary award!

And he still hasn't proven anything.

allan907 12th Aug 2012 00:49

Questions for MattGrey and Lex (if he's still around). Most people on here have expressed their dissatisfaction with the Gillard government and have explained the reasons why. All that seems to have been forthcoming from you guys is some, in my opinion, inane posts about the fact that Whyalla is still standing and repetitive 'Dr No' type comments.

But what do you really stand for? Where are you on the current issues?

Perhaps, as a starting point, you might care to answer these questions. Although on past practice I honestly do not expect an answer merely a question back or some provocative posts.

Anyway, here goes (in anticipation of some decent debate):

Do you agree with the anti Israeli boycott campaign being orchestrated by some unions in Victoria, including the Maritime Union of Australia, and left leaning branches of the Victorian ALP?

Do believe that Gillard is doing a good job and if so why?

Do you believe that Rudd would make a better leader?

Do you believe in the opinions of Gillard, Swan, Wong, Garrett, Conroy et al or those of Albanese, Ferguson, Bowen, McClelland and Carr regarding Rudd?

If an investigation finds Gillard complicit in the alleged fraud occasioned by Bruce Wilson and Ralph Blewitt should she be hauled before the courts and impeached?

Should Gillard continue to support Craig Thomson and Peter Slipper a) now and, b) if and when they are found guilty of misdemeanors?

If the situation were reversed and it was the Coalition in power at the moment with a scandal involving the Prime Minister, dodgy members of the Parliamentary Party and a succession of policy blunders all hanging by a thread of minority Government would you be champing at the bit for a change of Government to allow the ALP the chance to get out of the mess?

Do you support the current government policy on “asylum seekers” ie “Boat People” and, if you do, do you agree with Gillard’s statement regarding the arrival of boats off the shores of Australia as “Another boat another policy failure”?

Do you agree with the cuts to Defence made by this government?

As I say, I live in the forlorn hope that you actually do stand for something other than irrelevant and provocative comments and that you will actually answer some questions and let us know where you stand on the issues that are bedevilling this country at the moment. Most of us here have made our stand quite clear - have you the fortitude to do the same?

Buster Hyman 12th Aug 2012 01:53

Wasting your time Allan. You may get some interesting debate from Lex, but there is certainly no one of Bino's ilk batting for the red team on here.

What some of them fail to grasp is where people's loyalties lie. To post anything against the Red witch automatically means you must love Abbott, in their eyes...mostly the Muppets I guess. What I get from this forum is that there are many disatisfied fence sitters, who are aguing against Gillard, not for Abbott. But, in the interests of trolling, that point is conveniently forgotten.


As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.

PukinDog 12th Aug 2012 02:01

Do any Oz politicians/parties actually want to lower any of the taxes and fees that make everything in Australia so ridiculously expensive? Or is it just a matter of who wants to raise them faster and higher than the other?

parabellum 12th Aug 2012 02:04

allan907 - you do realise that by asking all those questions you are screwing up the Sunday afternoon of a whole group of ALP staffers who now have to sit around and formulate yet more drivel? Most inconsiderate!:ok:

Andu 12th Aug 2012 02:44

...and as we debate, two more boats have arrived. (Or should that be, two more boats have been announced as arriving?)

What's the total for this month now? It must be getting close to double figures.

Mach Turtle 12th Aug 2012 03:33

Just as an academic exercise, I think that if I worked for the federal Labor party and had been tasked with deciding on the general theme that might possibly appeal to enough people to allow that party to win the next federal election, I would choose to emphasize that most people would be better off in Australia than in Europe or the United States. This country has come through the past several years relatively better. I think that is their best argument for wide appeal.

Just as an academic exercise.

And if I worked for the other side, I'd say that while that may be true, it has little to do with the present government, and in fact may be in spite of it.

But in fact what we'll get is the usual stuff that might swing the voters in the six or eight electorates that decide elections.

Also, until Australia sorts out its paper-based voting system that not only allows but seemingly encourages multiple voting, its democracy is deeply flawed.

Captain Sand Dune 12th Aug 2012 04:24

Sadly very true. Both parties seem to assume the voting public has the attention span of a gnat (apparently a gnat has a very short one!). And maybe they’re right......
This is a country in desperate lead of real leadership, but populated by those least willing to accept it.
Agree with the comments on the paper voting system. But what to replace it with? A computer based system perhaps?
I would also recommend the abolition of compulsory voting.

eagle 86 12th Aug 2012 04:45

I think you'll find that lex and mg are one and the same. Both are part of the welded on labor supporters but a point to make, the term "true believers" was generated some time back to refer to such labor supporters - the term, in the real world, has never been used when referring to the Liberal equivalent. The most public use of the phrase relatively recently was by keating after his unexpected defeat of hewson (another complete dick!) in 1993. As I stated some time back mg's posts show a distinct lack of understanding of Oz politics.

prospector 12th Aug 2012 05:12

Pickering's writing style is appalling.

And he still hasn't proven anything.
You may think so, but the deafening silence coming from the ALP team in answering these allegations, that have been made very public by Larry Pickering, Alan Jones, Mike Smith, Shane Dowling and others in very public forums leaves one to think there must be a very big fire creating all this smoke.

EffohX 12th Aug 2012 06:09

I have to agree with prospector. The silence from Gillard's lawyers is deafening. Until now, she's been very quick to threaten to shut newspapers or radio stations down (see Mike Smith and Glen Milne's experiences when they first attempted to air the Gillard/AWU/dodgily named bank accounts story some months back).

Slater and Gordon have used the "everyone who was with the company back then is long gone" excuse, which, for a legal firm specialising in compensation claims speaks volumes. If there wasn't serious flame somewhere under all that smoke, you'd expect them to be suing Larry Pickering, Alan Jones and Mike Smith for every dollar they're ever likely to have.

Something's very on the nose about this, and for all the fault I and others are finding in Larry Pickering's choice in how he deliveres his message, he must feel he's on rather firm ground to be saying the things he's saying.

I really don't find very much to admire in Julia Gillard. However, in her choice of men, (even if you disregard the fact that every one she serially chooses seems to be some other woman's husband), she plumbs new depths in bad, bad judgement. None that we've heard of, even back in the days when she was "young and niaive", would set the heart of the heroine of the most penny dreadful Mills & Boone potboiler aflutter (although the union man with all those bank accounts seems to have spread his... umm... favours far and wide among Julia's friends and colleagues).

Mach Turtle 12th Aug 2012 06:53

Well, governments far more repressive than this one have been unseated by information self-published on the Internet. Even if the Australian government could somehow prevent a particular radio station or newspaper from publishing something (which might be possible), it probably couldn't stop ALL of them. And even if it could, this is what Wikileaks is for.

No one has yet come up with anything beyond circumstances and "should have known." That is not enough.

I am not even sure what form the smoking gun would take. Some sort of letter?

"Well done with the extortion, Bruce! I see that the proceeds have been put in the bank account. Looks like new shoes for me this weekend!"

Really. The supposed malfeasances were committed before email, back when evidence could be destroyed. The best we're going to get is some sort of statement from someone, which will be challenged forever.

The ALP stinks, absolutely, but we're not close to any sort of early dismissal because of criminal behavior by the prime minister. Craig Thomson is a possibility.

hellsbrink 12th Aug 2012 07:14

Really. The supposed malfeasances were committed before email, back when evidence could be destroyed. The best we're going to get is some sort of statement from someone, which will be challenged forever.
Not 100% sure of that. It is reasonable to expect someone to have kept documents as a kind of "insurance policy" to prevent them being dumped on from a great height, or that someone, who wasn't fully involved in the whole scam, kept something as a momento for when he/she felt the time was right.

Personally, if I was being accused of things like that I would be screaming "Prove it, put up or shut up" from the rooftops. Lawyers may end up being involved because no proof = libel. I wouldn't be keeping it quiet if I hadn't done what was being alleged. But that seems to be what is happening, there's smoke and mirrors from some allegedly involved and absolute silence from the rest. And, let's face it, someone claiming she was "young and naive" when she was in her 30's just won't wash..........

CoodaShooda 12th Aug 2012 07:32

Been away from home for a few weeks and have now returned to an election campaign in full swing.

What I've seen in the brief time back has re-confirmed my strong desire for a "none of the above" box on the ballot paper.

However, today's highlight had to be the disquiet of the labor campaign team over the defacement of some of their candidate posters.

Nothing new there, you might say.

Except that the "defacement" comprises a sticky label displaying the letters A, L and P.

It seems someone has taken offence to the posters that refer to Henderson's Team but make absolutely no reference to the labor party.

I wonder why they wouldn't want to name the party they have chosen to represent? :E

allan907 12th Aug 2012 07:45

All part of the ALP hypocrisy. A party that purports to stand for the "working man" but regards him as a f*ckwit of the first order.

The other parties probably do the same thing but not as blatantly.

Andu 12th Aug 2012 08:19

Another boat, bringing the total to three since Friday - that we know of.

Boats arrive as politicians await experts
By Katina Curtis From: AAP August 12, 2012 5:25PM

THE federal government hopes an expert panel's report on asylum-seeker policy will provide a compromise to which parliament can agree this week.

But the coalition and Greens are maintaining their hardline positions at opposite ends of the debate.

Labor asked an expert panel, headed by former defence chief Angus Houston, to come up with policy solutions to break the impasse between the minority government, the opposition and the Greens.

As three more boats carrying asylum seekers arrived over the weekend, politicians outlined their positions on the panel's report, to be released on Monday.
I'm not expecting any breakthroughs from the Houston committee (and nor, it would seem, are any media commentators.

It would be safe to say that the situation after the report is delivered will be similar to what it is now, or, to borrow a well known quote taken from another desperate situation: "Houston, we have a problem".

Andu 12th Aug 2012 08:48

Pat Condell at his usual best: The ugliest newspaper in Britain - YouTube

You could oh so easily delete "BBC" and insert "ABC" and delete "The Guardian" and insert "The Age/SMH" and he could be talking about Australia.

Worth listening to.

Andu 12th Aug 2012 08:49

Pat Condell at his usual best: The ugliest newspaper in Britain - YouTube

You could oh so easily delete "BBC" and insert "ABC" and delete "The Guardian" and insert "The Age/SMH" and he could be talking about Australia.

Worth listening to.

MattGray 12th Aug 2012 13:41

Pat Condell at his usual best

OMG I don't believe I'm reading this.

Pat Condell is nothing but a tiresome hypocritical and sanctimonious old Pommy bigot. IMHO.

Even one of the 'Nets most extreme Right Wing white supremacist neo-Nazi forums like Stormfront reject Condell ranting as Zionist, charlatan, hatemonger, hypocrite.

Worth listening to.


MattGray 12th Aug 2012 13:55

So let's see if I've got this straight.

When Barrie Cassidy gets quoted in here re the Liberals contemptible and mean-spirited intransigence on the National Disability Insurance Scheme he gets discredited on the grounds of alleged Labor bias.

Never mind that Cassidy is a commentator who is well respected by both sides of Australian politics.
Never mind that Cassidy recently published a whole book which casts the PM Gillard in a poor light.
Obviously the subtlety of the posted chapter extract "Night of the Long Knives" and the book title itself "The Party Thieves" continues to elude this panel of deep thinking political analysts. Yep, Cassidy is definitely biased, and so presumably by association this poster also.

In stark contrast however the Labor critics here are only too eager to uncritically swallow the disjointed ramblings of a well past his use by date, failed and embittered Liberal Party candidate for the seat of Canberra.

So obviously no bias or crass hypocrisy there then from those happy to play political football with the unfortunate handicapped and their carers.:rolleyes:


Buster Hyman 12th Aug 2012 14:21


allan907 12th Aug 2012 15:41

Perhaps, as a starting point, you might care to answer these questions. Although on past practice I honestly do not expect an answer merely a question back or some provocative posts.
Yup. The crystal ball is working perfectly.

500N 12th Aug 2012 15:51

I see Houston's report is due out. Should be interesting.

6 boats and near as 300 people in the last few days which makes 114 boats
and over 7600 people !

I think maybe Abbott / Joolia needs to modify their views and
at least come up with some sort of off shore processing solution
to stop these damn boats.

allan907 12th Aug 2012 16:19

The ALP is not for turning on this issue. The terms of reference for Houston will ensure that any recommendation fits with Gillard's plan.

The Greens - the partners in this f*cked up government - are the key. If they voted with the Treasury benches then Gillard's preferred plan would pass into law.

Why should the pressure be on the Coalition to bend their principles to make the government look good? The Coalition had a policy in place that worked. And that's a proven fact.

So, come tomorrow, it will remain situation normal - a few more tears from the pie-eating SHY and some harsh words across the floor but nothing will change. And that's what Gillard is all about. She doesn't actually want a workable solution she merely wants to beat Abbott. And that really sums up the situation for the past 2 years or so - nothing substantive just beat Abbott.

Remember her magnaminous gesture when Tony Abbott met her in the middle of the floor after her coup to say "congratulations"? Her reply? "Game's on".

Well, the final chukka will be played out soon and Gillard will be out for the count despite some irrelevancies from some on here that are unable to face that fact.

500N 12th Aug 2012 16:22


"Why should the pressure be on the Coalition to bend their principles to make the government look good? The Coalition had a policy in place that worked. And that's a proven fact."

Not saying just the Coalition, I'm saying they both need to do something.
I don't think it will happen as Abbott wants an election and wants this
as a main issue IMHO.

As much as I hate Howard, bring back his hard ball solution anyday
and take it further - now we can travel into Indo waters, pick them up earlier, turn them back / tow boats back - or sink the odd one to get the message across. Maybe even jam mobile phone signals !!!


prospector 12th Aug 2012 23:45

From an E mail received:

Dear Employees:
As the CEO of this organization, I have
resigned myself to the fact
that Julia Gillard is our Prime Minister, and that in addition to the
Carbon Tax, our taxes and government fees will be increasing in a BIG
way. To compensate for these increases, our prices would have to
increase by about 20%.
But, since we cannot increase our prices right now, due to the dismal
state of the economy, we will have to lay off 60 of our employees,
instead.This really has been bothering me, since I believe that we are
family, here, and I didn't know how to choose who would have to go..
So, this is what I did. I walked through our parking lot and found 60
'Labor bumper stickers' on our employees cars and have decided that
these folks will be the ones to let go.I can't think of a more fair way
to approach this problem.They voted for change, so I gave it to
them. I'll see the rest of you
at the annual company picnic!

Mach Turtle 13th Aug 2012 00:44

Almost half of Australians who work, work for companies of fewer than 20 employees. I would bet that a large part of those are one-person or family enterprises. Tradies, restaurants, that sort of thing.

And I'd say that it's not so much the big fish that are getting smashed by taxes and other costs.

Improving employment means making it less scary for a guy to go out and buy a truck and some tools, or a family to take a lease on a cafe, or for someone to invest in education with the intent of doing something big.

allan907 13th Aug 2012 03:52

Oops Jooliar! Where ya gonna go now? Let's see if you're still keen on "pudding differenzes aside" and a "bi-pardisan approach". Would be a lot like saying that you were wrong wouldn't it?

Expert panel recommends Malaysia, Nauru - The West Australian

An expert panel on asylum seeker policy has recommended offshore processing in both Malaysia and Nauru.

The federal government-appointed panel led by former defence force chief Angus Houston also has recommended the reopening of the Howard government-era detention centre on Papua New Guinea's Manus Island.


Mr Houston said asylum seekers would also have access to an appeal mechanism.

He said turning back asylum seeker boats - a coalition policy - can be an effective disincentive

500N 13th Aug 2012 04:07

A bit of a slap in the face for Jooles. Now if only she would make some
hard decisions based on this report.

I am glad Angus highlighted that the disincentives, really shows
that the Lib policies worked at stopping the boats coming.

And she can't go against her Angus, she loves the man (based on what she said at his retirement) - which isn't surprising considering he is so much more man than what she currently sleeps with.

Buster Hyman 13th Aug 2012 05:10

Now that this is out, I expect some truly inspiring words from the true believers, such as GST, Workchoices, etc.....:yuk:

owen meaney 13th Aug 2012 06:33

Housten Report
Which way will the government go now?

allan907 13th Aug 2012 06:37

It's becoming not worth the bandwidth to even note their presence. They say nothing, they don't advance the argument and their usual postings resemble something written on the school toilet walls. All the hallmarks of a troll.

By totally ignoring them they might, just might, go away and leave room for someone like the late lamented Binos who could argue the left wing case with intellect, wit and reason. Whilst you could disagree with him you ultimately came away from any exchange more knowledgeable and wiser. This current lot are not worthy to stand in his shadow.

500N 13th Aug 2012 06:38

Their is going to be an Media conference with Joolia and the Immigration minister over the report.

This should make interesting viewing watching her deflect things away.

I find most put things in some airey farey type of cotton wool that sounds good,
has all the right buzz words in it but actually contains nothing of substance.
Binos sounds like he could hold his own.

MTOW 13th Aug 2012 07:30

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

LABOR will tomorrow introduce legislation into parliament to allow the resumption of offshore processing on Nauru and Papua New Guinea's Manus Island.

Julia Gillard announced the dramatic policy shift today after the Labor caucus endorsed Angus Houston's expert panel report on asylum-seekers, resolving to back all 22 of its recommendations.

The Prime Minister said the government would also move to immediately boost the annual humanitarian intake from 13,500 to 20,000 a year, as recommended by the Houston panel, and limit the access of humanitarian entrants to family reunion provisions.

In a further response to the Houston report, Ms Gillard said the government would restart talks with Malaysia to improve safeguards for asylum-seekers under Labor's proposed people swap deal.

Immigration Minister Chris Bowen said asylum-seekers intercepted by Australian authorities from today risked being processed offshore.
The Greens won't back it, so the Coalition will have to make a hard decision tomorrow.

However, the big question will be whether the devil isn't hidden in the details of anything Gillard comes up with. It remains to be seen if anything that contains Nauru won't be "badmintoned" by Labor - (to borrow a new word given to us by the recent Olympics) - i.e., set up purposely to fail.

I have to admit, I'm pleasantly surprised to see Angus Houston's committee come out with something not totally in line with current government policies. However, without TPVs, all they've come up with is a longer (and more costly) queue, a queue that can will take just a few weeks more to swamp if the people smugglers keep the hopefuls coming in large enough numbers, which, with the advent of the Tamils into the equation, would seem to be pretty much a certainly.

500N 13th Aug 2012 07:44


I think she picked Angus because he has been shown in the past
to be his own man, albeit against a Liberal Gov't when he stood his
ground over the overboard affair.

I also don't think Julia was under any illusions that he would come up
with what he thought was best.

However, I do agree with you, it's just the same queue but via a different route !!!

We will now have to see what Abbott does.

allan907 13th Aug 2012 08:23

Well, that's a plus for Gillard for accepting, in toto, the Houston Report. Hopefully Abbott will be smart enough to accept it as well but with the proviso that if there are any "badmintons" in it all deals are off.

Unfortunately, good as it is, it's like a 1,000 piece jigsaw with the crucial piece missing - TPVs.

Welcome them with open arms, give them protection from the wars and turbulence that they are allegedly fleeing from but reserve the right to send them back when all is quiet. Humane - but lets them know we're not a totally soft touch.

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