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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

SOPS 11th Jan 2014 13:58

And in the latest update, the UN is demanding an explanation about turning the boats back. I hope Tony tells them to p:mad:ss off!

Ken Borough 12th Jan 2014 00:40

The following article, with which many here wil disagree, was written by Fr Frank Brennan SJ. He is one of the nation's most respected commentators. When Frank says 'oy', it's time for us all to listen and take note.


​It is essential that we receive unambiguous public confirmation that Indonesia is agreeing to the tow-back of boats. Unilateral action by the Abbott Government is just not on. It would fracture our relationship with Indonesia, would be counterproductive and contrary to our international legal obligations.

All you need do is consider Recommendation 19 of the 2012 Expert Panel chaired by Angus Houston who had headed our armed services and Michael L’Estrange who had been head of John Howard’s Cabinet Office and then head of the DFAT.

Recommendation 19 reads: “The Panel notes that the conditions necessary for effective, lawful and safe turnback of irregular vessels carrying asylum seekers to Australia are not currently met, but that this situation could change in the future, in particular if appropriate regional and bilateral arrangements are in place .”

In their report the Expert Panel spoke about turnbacks at para 3.77: “Turning back irregular maritime vessels carrying asylum seekers to Australia can be operationally achieved and can constitute an effective disincentive to such ventures, but only in circumstances where a range of operational, safety of life, diplomatic and legal conditions are met:

The State to which the vessel is to be returned would need to consent to such a return.

Turning around a vessel outside Australia’s territorial sea or contiguous zone (that is, in international waters) or ‘steaming’ a vessel intercepted and turned around in Australia’s territorial sea or contiguous zone back through international waters could only be done under international law with the approval of the State in which the vessel is registered (the ‘flag State’).

A decision to turn around a vessel would need to be made in accordance with Australian domestic law and international law, including non-refoulement obligations, and consider any legal responsibility Australia or operational personnel would have for the consequences to the individuals on board any vessel that was to be turned around.

Turning around a vessel would need to be conducted consistently with Australia’s obligations under the SOLAS Convention, particularly in relation to those on board the vessel, mindful also of the safety of those Australian officials or Australian Defence Force (ADF ) personnel involved in any such operation.”

They then say, “In the Panel’s view, the conditions noted above and required for effective, lawful and safe turnbacks of irregular vessels headed for Australia with asylum seekers on board are not currently met in regard to turnbacks to Indonesia.”

Mr Abbott and Mr Morrison, we need to know what’s changed. This is not war. This is the rule of law on the high seas during peacetime. This is Australia.

Fr Frank Brennan SJ, Professor of Law, Australian Catholic University


MTOW 12th Jan 2014 00:51

War in Australia (any Oz Politics)
 
Ken, Tony Abbott clearly said, only in the last few days, that we are at war with the people smugglers. Anyone - like the oxygen thief Sahara Hanson hyphen whatever - who can't see that we are in a war of cultural survival is singularly lacking in common sense. And a sense of self-preservation.

MTOW 12th Jan 2014 00:53

War in Australia (any Oz Politics)
 
Having difficulty driving my new smart phone. Can't find the 'delete post' button.

Ken Borough 12th Jan 2014 01:27

Abbott has said many things such as we have a 'budget emergency' with which only the far right wing economists agree. He said that there'd not be any secrets under a government he leads. He said he'd be open and honest with the Australian people. Nonsense. I could go on but there's little point trying to convince the metaphorically blind and deaf with logic.

We are not at war with anyone. Pray, tell me, where is the declaration?

Ethel the Aardvark 12th Jan 2014 03:55

One of the first statements made by Phony was he wanted an Arlington style war cemetery for Australia.
I suppose if you have one then you have to start filling it up somehow. The more wars you have justifies it I presume.
They even have a Navy border protection medal now. Mentioned in dispatches for turning away women and children in boats.
( not knocking the service personell but the slimy Polly's)

Captain Sand Dune 12th Jan 2014 04:31


Abbott has said many things such as we have a 'budget emergency' with which only the far right wing economists agree.
So the budget post-Labor was in great shape then? How big is that deficit again? Well it appears that the majority of Australians must also be ‘far right wing economists’ then because Labor’s abysmal economic management of was just one of many reasons they were turfed from office.

He said that there'd not be any secrets under a government he leads. He said he'd be open and honest with the Australian people.
So not hand feeding the media at frequent intervals is keeping secrets? It appears the previous government kept a few of their own, such as espionage activities it oversaw. To be fair governments of all persuasions do the same thing; however isn’t it ‘coincidental’ that particular Australian espionage activities executed during the previous government’s administration were kept secret until ‘revealed’ several years later by the ALP’s media branch (that’s the ABC of course) after they lost office?
And of course let's not talk about Julya's dirty little secrets.

We are not at war with anyone. Pray, tell me, where is the declaration?
I just love how some take a turn of phrase literally to suit their own argument.

One of the first statements made by Phony was he wanted an Arlington style war cemetery for Australia.
I suppose if you have one then you have to start filling it up somehow. The more wars you have justifies it I presume.
You really are a nasty bit of work.

Clare Prop 12th Jan 2014 04:47

Is she going to give a repeat of her misogyny speech?

he Emirates Center for Strategic Studies and Research (ECSSR) is organizing a lecture by Her Excellency Julia Gillard, Former Prime Minister of the Commonwealth of Australia, titled: ‘The UAE and Australia: A Roadmap for Future Cooperation,’ on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 at 07:30pm, in the Sheikh Zayed bin Sultan Al Nahyan Hall at the ECSSR office complex in Abu Dhabi.

Emirates Center for Strategic Studies and Research - ECSSR Portal

She better keep her hands off other people's husbands while she's there, I understand they don't take kindly to that sort of thing.


"Her Excellency"???!!!

Ethel the Aardvark 12th Jan 2014 04:53

I am sorry if you think it's nasty but our fearless leader can not have a war cemetery of Arlington stature unless you have dead bodies of fallen service people entombed there. They go hand in hand so to speak.
I would think not having a war cemetery would be a much better thing for all concerned!

500N 12th Jan 2014 05:10

"We are not at war with anyone. Pray, tell me, where is the declaration?"

Wars are not declared anymore or rarely.


Re a war cemetery, if it was 1913, maybe. US is different in that they set up
one many years ago.


"They even have a Navy border protection medal now. Mentioned in dispatches for turning away women and children in boats.
( not knocking the service personell but the slimy Polly's)"

Good to see you are not knocking the service people.

And what is wrong with a medal for what they do / have done.
Nothing wrong with the policy, the Gov't should go further and
be tougher as the majority of Aussies suggest.

Ken Borough 12th Jan 2014 05:31

Keep listening to and reading the likes of Jones, Hadley, Bolt, Akerman, Devine and the other denizens of the right and many here will have a well-rounded view of life! Also, threats of physical attack do not have any place around here: before we know it, the likes of 500N (:yuk::yuk:) will be saying 'we know where you live'.

Andu 12th Jan 2014 05:32

When you cut to the chase, isn't protecting the border pretty much THE job description for a country's armed services?

..and not a bloody taxi service to the Promised Land for the country shoppers.

500N 12th Jan 2014 05:47

One of the jobs although mainly customs and immigration
Until armed defence is required then mil take over.
Pong su is a good example which clearly showed customs
And the police were not capable.

Ken Borough 12th Jan 2014 05:59

Andu,

You're so right - up to a point. I'd not have an issue with what you say except that 'The Military' should only be deployed to protect the borders when they are threatened by armed invaders. The people coing in these wretched boats are neither armed nor equipped to 'invade' our shores. They are (mostly) coming in search of a peaceful place, having fled from tyranny and persecution. If the job has to be done , it should be left to Customs/Immigration or have a dedicated Coast Guard.

As an observation from what I've seen on television I have to wonder if 'The Military' is in fact comfortable with being tasked to do this rotten, unconscionable work? The demeanour of the army guy who appeared with Morrison at the latter's weekly briefings looked as comfortable and as happy as the proverbial pork chop.

BTW, no one has seen fit to comment on Frank Brennan's article. Too intellectual, or something against which an argument cannot be made?

Captain Sand Dune 12th Jan 2014 06:40

Interesting reading, Ken. To be honest I can't refute what Mr Brennan says. If the government is basing its hopes of eliminating illegal immigrants getting to this country solely on the policy of turning boats around, it is doomed to failure.
As I have stated before, Australia needs to examine the 'pull' factors that entice these people to travel halfway across the globe, bypassing any number of countries that are safer than those they have departed from. We are travelling down the same road as the UK, where a seemingly unfettered access to a large range of welfare benefits is attracting many economic immigrants in addition to those in genuine need of asylum.
And careful what you call 'intellectual', or I'll start quoting some articles from Andrew Bolt!:p

500N 12th Jan 2014 06:50

"having fled from tyranny and persecution."

That's the problem Ken, they / many aren't.

They are economic refugees.

The Military is employed to support the Gov't and / or provide
assistance. The Mil patrol the sea borders already before the AS
issue and provide protection to other Gov't agencies carrying out
tasks anywhere in the world.

Airey Belvoir 12th Jan 2014 07:19


'we know where you live’.
That was the province of certain left wing supporters who appeared on the Oz politics thread some time ago and now are no longer with us (in that guise at least) and have vacated the tea bar.

Ken Borough 12th Jan 2014 07:21


And careful what you call 'intellectual', or I'll start quoting some articles from Andrew Bolt!
Love your sense of humour, Captain! I'd've thought that 'intellectual' and 'Andrew Bolt' are not mutually exclusive -there's almost a tautology there somewhere. :ok:

The 'economic refugees' should certainly be returned to the place from which they came. No one would argue against that but finding their proper home is the dilemma - it's certainly not Australia. The genuine refugees are those who really need asylum but according to Morrison and his cheer-squad, none of the boat arrivals are genuine refugees. Herein is the difficult problem.

Andu 12th Jan 2014 07:45

To further muddy the waters - the country shoppers/economic migrants, mostly relatively well educated middle class citizens of countries like Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan (where many of the so-called Afghan 'refugees' actually hail from) will, if they choose to - (and I know that's the rub for many - 'if they choose to') - fit in to Australian society far more easily than the vast majority of genuine refugees, from war-torn countries in Africa where the cultures and way of life is about as far removed from Australian suburban life as you could get short of grabbing a tribesman from the remote Amazon.

One only needs to take a look at how well - not! - Somali youths are fitting in to Australian society in places like the northern suburbs of Melbourne or the Gold Coast. When you grow up in a society where from early childhood, going for a gun, usually a military calibre automatic rifle - and your very survival depends upon your willingness to use it, and without delay or restraint - it's very, very hard to convince yourself that you should dial 000 and wait for a cop to come and rescue you, particularly a cop who, in your eyes at least, will be anything but amicable towards you.

Worrals in the wilds 12th Jan 2014 08:11

Andu, I think your first point is a valid one. However, they're still racketeering a system that was designed for persecuted and unfortunate people fleeing violence.

Of course for many years, there have been economic migrants have been rorting the system and jumping the queue using without getting their feet wet. Even twenty years ago there were alleged to be various cash for visa schemes and dodgy migration agents greasing the wheels of progress for Asian migrants, and presumably those allegations are still around.

Likewise 'student' visas :hmm:, some of which seem to be issued for the purpose of studying taxi driving or pole dancing. :suspect: However, none of this is nearly as media friendly as footage of people turning up in boats and doesn't seem to bother people as much, even though the numbers are probably equal or greater.


Somali youths are fitting in to Australian society in places like the northern suburbs of Melbourne or the Gold Coast.
Gold Coast :confused:? We don't have a major Somali problem that I'm aware of; drunken Kiwis, Islanders and dinki di whitefellas are the big issue here.


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