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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

sisemen 25th Jul 2013 09:28

Jeez. Everytime I go out of range of the 'outer all hell breaks loose on this thread. Shame about Fliegs - hopefully the stay in the sin bin is relatively short.

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Don't bother trying to persuade HID with the facts - his mind is made up and there is a flag waving figure out in front that is promising to lead him and his kind to socialist glory once more. Ah well, maybe he'll wake up one day :\

heated ice detector 25th Jul 2013 12:34

Thanks Sizey,
IMHO sending armed soldiers against civilians made up of women and children would not be our bravest hour, Howard sending the SAS against the Tampa mob was also not our finest moment in history either.
Embarrassing to say the least.

500N 25th Jul 2013 12:37

I believe it pissed off the SAS as well.

The problem is, boarding of ships is a highly risky business
and really only 2 or 3 military units are really well trained
in it so not much choice.

As was shown with the Pong Su.

heated ice detector 25th Jul 2013 12:52

I suppose the Tampa was a good distraction from punch ups with surfies in Scarborough.
It is not in the Asylum seekers interest to be violent when they believe they are being saved, therefore I could not agree that boarding vessels is high risk. put a bit of perspective on it.

500N 25th Jul 2013 12:55

The Tampa was not high risk, most other boardings are.
Pong Su being one of the most dangerous types.

OK, AS boats don't generally have armed people on board
but if they refuse to heave to, you are then boarding a moving
boat that takes skill etc.

Andu 25th Jul 2013 12:58

I think Tony Abbott has fallen - at last - into one of the succession of traps Labor has been setting for him in coming up with this military option to fix the boat problem. (I heard that he 'did a Rudd' with this and didn't run it past his Shadow Cabinet before announcing it, leaving some very unhappy campers among the Shadow Cabinet.)

Labor will make a meal of this. Our military ALWAYS answers to a civilian, and although Tony Abbott's General will be answerable directly to the Immigration Minister, that's not the usual chain of command, so Labor will sell this (with the help of a large enough slice of the always compliant MSM) as handing over a function of civil power to the military.

There'll be some who'll say - (I hasten to say totally inaccurately) - that he's done an Egypt, and there'll be enough who read only the headlines who'll repeat it, and in true 'big lie' fashion, with some, (mainly the FM radio listeners, who are already largely pre-conditioned to believe the worst of Tony Abbott), who'll believe it.

First mistake Tony. You can't afford to make any more.

Buster Hyman 25th Jul 2013 13:31

So, he should have sent Reservists to board the Tampa instead? If I recall correctly, the Captain of the vessel tried to alight his passengers at the nearest port, as per Maritime law but the passengers had other ideas. In one sense, a mutiny, perhaps overly dramatic but accurate if one accepts that the Captain was under enough duress to change course. Boarding a vessel at Sea, not entirely sure who's in command, possible hostage situation...and you'd send a Customs Officer? Fisheries & Wildlife Inspector? Welfare Officer?

500N 25th Jul 2013 13:38

Reserve Commandos would have been capable of boarding,
they do very similar training and would have the same skill
set, not just quite as honed.

Not sure that would apply to the Pong Su though.

But it's a dead issue anyway because you always have a Squadron
on immediate notice to move and then you have others also available.
No need to call on Reservists plus one hell of a lot of paperwork to
be done to call them up.

I certainly wouldn't send Police or Customs. That was shown
with the Pong Su.

Buster Hyman 25th Jul 2013 14:20

Reserve Commandos...didn't know we had any. I shall defer to your better knowledge on this. The ADF order of battle is not my forte'.

500N 25th Jul 2013 14:28

Until recently - like 10 years ago, you only had Reserve Commandos,
being 1 Cdo Regt, HQ in Sydney with 1 Cdo Coy on Sydney and
2 Cdo Coy in Melbourne plus a Sig Regt.

Then when 4 RAR was re roled to Cdo, eventually being renamed 2 Cdo Regt
based in Holsworthy.

And once you have 2 Regt up and running, it also meant you the Anti Terrorist
role was split with SAS into East and West Coasts, with the East coast being
called TAG (E).

SAS and Cdo's have different roles and selection criteria.


I forgot to add, the Navy can of course board boats, ships although not sure the level of training for an "assault" type boarding.

CoodaShooda 25th Jul 2013 21:11

HID
We currently have armed sailors boarding AS vessels. What's the difference?

7x7 25th Jul 2013 21:55

On the news this morning: Indonesia "upset" with Kevni because he didn't brief them on the PNG "solution". If Australia pays all the bills and increases the aid hugely, (as we'll be doing in the PNG (non)"solution"), I'm sure the Indons would fall over themselves to allow as many Muslims to settle in West Irian (West Papua) as they could squeeze into the (as yet) largely non-Islamic province.

One more step towards the worldwide Caliphate... with the silly bloody kuffurs paying.

Andu 25th Jul 2013 22:49

Cut and pasted from the Tim Blair blog. (With thanks to poster 'Puzzled'.)


Weeks after the Gladiator star threw his weight behind deposed Labor leader Julia Gillard, Russell Crowe is now rallying for Malcolm Turnbull to take the coalition leadership.

On Thursday Crowe sent a Twitter message: “Dear Malcolm Turnbull, I am a union member, a tax payer. You are the most trusted politician in our country, destiny calls. Please consider.”

I’m waiting to see what Cate Blanchette’s thinks. We are so lucky, in this country, to have so many qualified political thinkers amongst the ranks of our thespian betters.
On Paul Murray Live last night, (hosted by the excellent Jeannine Perritt), all the panel agreed that a Russell Crowe endorsement for Turnbull was the kiss of death.

Crowe isn't even entitled to vote - despite the great Australian tradition of adopting any foreigner who makes good as "Australian", he's still a bloody Kiwi - and from just about every report I've ever heard from anyone who's met him, (to put it mildly), not nice.

Buster Hyman 25th Jul 2013 22:57

7x7. For fear of being howled down by fluffy lefties, I have yet to put forward that line of thinking. Is PNG really capable of handling the sudden influx of such a religious demographic?

CoodaShooda 26th Jul 2013 00:57

Buster
PNG is currently unable to manage its internal affairs in an unviolent manner.

My brother was recently up there to umpire some cricket matches. He was not allowed to go anywhere without a three man security detail.

Corruption, crime and inter-tribal violence is rife.

It's a sad contrast to the great times we had living there pre-independence.

chuboy 26th Jul 2013 01:26


Originally Posted by Buster Hyman (Post 7960608)
7x7. For fear of being howled down by fluffy lefties, I have yet to put forward that line of thinking. Is PNG really capable of handling the sudden influx of such a religious demographic?

Isn't the point of the plan that PNG is such an undesirable place to be settled, there won't be an "influx" once the boat people cotton on to the cold hard truth?

Buster Hyman 26th Jul 2013 01:33


Isn't the point of the plan that PNG is such an undesirable place to be settled, there won't be an "influx" once the boat people cotton on to the cold hard truth?
Well, in fairness & at face value of the plan, I hope you're right. I think we're all pretty much wanting the same conclusion, albeit we're coming from different approaches. Yes, boats have arrived since the policy announcement, but I'm sure these were too far committed to stop at this point anyway. If Rudd stops the people smuggling racket, then he'll go up a notch in my book...anyone that does it would...he's starting from a low base though... :p
My concern, and I don't mind if you think my tin foil hat is leaking, is that we get a scenario whereby resettled Muslims become targets of these gangs and a "Neighborly Islamic Nation" feels compelled to intervene across the border to assist in their protection... Nah, that wouldn't happen would it.

Clare Prop 26th Jul 2013 01:50

So...Kevvie took unilateral action and did this whole PNG thing without SBY's permission? :eek::eek:

7x7 26th Jul 2013 05:48


Isn't the point of the plan that PNG is such an undesirable place to be settled, there won't be an "influx" once the boat people cotton on to the cold hard truth?
The people smugglers are quite obviously telling their potential customers that KRudd will never have the gonads to send anyone to such a hellhole - and going on his past performance (which not for one moment should anyone believe that the potential customers for the illegal boats will not be intimately aware of) - the customers are still lining up to board the boats to the Promised Land.

They will see a 'worst case scenario' as being sent to PNG and then suing the Australian government for millions in compensation - and getting, if not millions, at the very least a VERY hefty payout - for the pain and suffering they endured while in PNG.

And guess who'll be representing them when they sue the Australian government - (which is actually, not the government, but YOU)? - Australian human rights lawyers like Ian Rintool and Julian Burnside.

And win or lose, guess who'll be paying those lawyers fees? - You and me, the long-suffering Australian taxpayer.

The ONLY thing that will work is for three or four boatloads of asylum seekers arriving back at their point of departure immediately upon being intercepted. Notice I said 'boatloads, and not 'boats'. It's a given that any boat from here on will be at the very least, disabled the moment the RAN or Aust Customs boats appears on scene, and more likely, capsized.

The Navy needs to have a refurbished boat (or boats) accompanying them to transfer the illegals to, if necessary, (as it almost certainly will be) with the passengers restrained and under guard, sent back from whence they came.

After the third or fourth boatload arrives back at its point of departure, perhaps in a different boat, only then will people recognise that Australia is (at last) getting serious.

I'm sure the people smugglers will come up with a countermeasure, but when they do, our people will have to tweak their response with something that remains effective effective.

SOPS 26th Jul 2013 08:04

Anyone else seen the latest photos on Michael Smith's site? It is a rage ( no pun intended) concern. When does the first shipment to PNG leave?


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