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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

sisemen 5th Feb 2013 01:47

We live in the same geographic area and I'd love to have a coffee with you sometime (my post code is 421x). I think I'd find it enjoyable, stimulating and challenging

I'm also in the 421 bracket.

OI! It's not a dating site you know := :E


Buster Hyman 5th Feb 2013 02:14

Love to see that coffee spray if Margaret Whitlam walked in asking for a David...:E

david1300 5th Feb 2013 02:43


Point noted re some unions - those that do really represent their members tend to be less newsworthy, so I see the error of my ways. My position is changed to 'many' unions, not all.

I notice you didn't agree on point 2. Seeing as welfare/social security is firmly in the political arena, would you like to comment further?

@sisemen :p:p. Jealousy is sooo unbecoming ;). We can invite fliegs along to show it's all kept above the neckline, sunshine:) (with apologies to any Chess fans):E

RJM 5th Feb 2013 03:03

Fliegs?? Better him than Slasher, I suppose...

david1300 5th Feb 2013 03:21

Well, he does live closer than Mr S. Caution, thread drift: I wonder what we are all really like in real life, when not hidden behind our monitors and keyboards:ooh:

Worrals in the wilds 5th Feb 2013 03:48

I notice you didn't agree on point 2. Seeing as welfare/social security is firmly in the political arena, would you like to comment further?
I'm never short of a comment :E (except when it comes to Slasher as chaperone. Staying way away from that issue... :eek:).
In answer to your question; yes, I think there is a place for welfare/social security. In countries that don't have much (like India, which I've been to) the poor and unfortunate live on the streets in cardboard boxes and frequently starve to death inside them. :(

I wouldn't want to see that sort of thing here, and TBQH I don't think many other people would either. I think most Australians support a degree of social welfare, the questions are to what degree and who gets it. Personally I think the newstart is incredibly low, and I don't know how you could attend job interviews, undertake any training or do any of the other stuff that helps you get another job, particularly if you have dependents as well. If a person can't afford to do any of that, how are they ever going to get employed again and become self sufficient? In the meantime, how are they going to afford rent and food? In an increasing number of cases, they can't.

Of course we've all got used to handouts, rebates, subsidies and all sorts of middle class welfare (under different names) that many of us don't really need. Also, any welfare system results in a number of rorters and some bludgers becoming welfare dependent. The key to welfare is to have enough to give people a leg up when they need it, without becoming a major source of income for big chunks of the community.

Working out that balance is the hard part, particularly when both parties use welfare as a political football.

Buster Hyman 5th Feb 2013 04:30

Worrals. Vinnies have a slogan that I like. They give people a "Hand up, not a hand out"

RJM 5th Feb 2013 06:46

In short, all sides exhibit a fair amount of self-interested opportunism. So who's left to represent honestly the average punter, or PPRuNer? Nick Xenophon? (and even he has his own barrow to push)

Buster Hyman 5th Feb 2013 07:23

Nobody RJM. To get that spirit back in Parliament, it's got to stop being a career for starters!

Worrals in the wilds 5th Feb 2013 07:29

Agreed, Buster. (Re previous comment, V. Funny :})

I think the X man is a decent pollie, but he's very much the small business owners' champion. That's great for decent small business owners (and there are many) but get him on the subject of IR stuff like penalty rates and his affiliations become obvious. I've done an awful lot of shift work over the years, and IME anyone who thinks that working Sunday nights or Boxing Day is worth the same as 9-5 hasn't actually done much of it.

There's a type of small business owner who'd just love to pay a bunch of naive kids two bucks a day and not worry about all the pesky safety stuff. Then when someone ends up hurt or dead (as happened several times with ceiling insulation installers), or suicides due to workplace bullying that was condoned by their employer, said employer ends up in court wondering what went wrong.

sisemen 5th Feb 2013 23:51

Day 2 of the Parliamentary Year and so far ..............all's quiet!

219 days to go.

500N 6th Feb 2013 00:03

The next scandal will hit next week !

The Essendon drug scandal is taking up
all the time and media space ATM :O

FullOppositeRudder 6th Feb 2013 00:41

There are some very sharp eyed people out there, or was this a deliberate editorial setup begging to be modified??


Buster Hyman 6th Feb 2013 00:59

500N...lets not talk footy at the moment...too gutted. :(

david1300 6th Feb 2013 03:58

Welcome to the debate, Brian. I can see you haven't read too many of the last few days posts - for example, not as far back as post 4325 and 4335 ;) All good, that link is so funny it is worth repeating :ok:

david1300 6th Feb 2013 04:06

Has this done the rounds?
Go Dutch!

The Netherlands , where six per cent of the population is now Muslim, is scrapping multiculturalism. The Dutch government says it will abandon the long-standing model of multiculturalism that has encouraged Muslim immigrants to create a parallel society within the Netherlands.

A new integration bill, which Dutch Interior Minister Piet Hein Donner presented to parliament on June 16
[2011. Walt] reads: "The government shares the social dissatisfaction over the multicultural society model and plans to shift priority to the values of the Dutch people.
In the new integration system, the values of the Dutch society play a central role.With this change, the government steps away from the model of a multicultural society."

The letter
[see below] continues: "A more obligatory integration is justified because the government also demands that from its own citizens. It is necessary because otherwise the society gradually grows apart and eventually no one feels at home anymore in the Netherlands .

"The new integration policy will place more demands on immigrants. For example, immigrants will be required to learn the Dutch language, and the government will take a tougher approach to immigrants who ignore Dutch values or disobey Dutch law."

The government will also stop offering special subsidies for Muslim immigrants because, according to Donner: "It is not the government's job to integrate immigrants."

The government will introduce new legislation that outlaws forced marriages and will also impose tougher measures against Muslim immigrants who lower their chances of employment by the way they dress. More specifically, the government will impose a ban on face-covering, Islamic burqas as of January 1, 2013. [Walt reported this in "Muslim eyes aren't smiling -- Dutch to ban the burqa", posted 16/9/11.]

The e-mail forwarded by Agent 3 continues:
Holland has done that whole liberal thing, and realized -- maybe too late -- that creating a nation of tribes will kill the nation itself. The future of Australia, the UK and Canada may well be read here.

Muslim immigrants leave their countries of birth because of civil and political unrest created by the very nature of their own culture. Countries like the Netherlands, Canada, the UK and Australia have an established way of life that actually works, so why embrace the unworkable? If Muslims do not wish to accept another culture, the answer is simple: stay where you are!

This gives a whole new meaning to the term "Dutch courage". Unfortunately Australian, British, and Canadian politicians don't have the guts to do the same. There's a whole lot of truth here!

Agent 3 expresses his agreement, but before forwarding it to his long list of correspondents wants to be sure the report isn't a hoax. Well, Mr. Three, you'll be happy to know it's the real thing -- old news, to be sure, but worth repeating.

The text quoted in the first part of the e-mail was written by Soeren Kern and posted on the Gatestone Institute's website 23/6/11. Needless to say, the story was generally ignored by the PC, "pro-diversity", American media.

The "letter" referred to is apparently the covering letter attached by Minister Donner to the new integration bill. The Gatestone article gives the background to the new legislation and the reasons why the Dutch government thought it necessary.

Polls taken just before the introduction of the bill showed that a majority of Dutch voters supported the government's skepticism about multiculturalism. 74% of Dutch voters told the Maurice de Hond organization that immigrants should conform to Dutch values. And 83% of those polled supported a ban on burqas in public spaces.

The problem of course is the increasing number of Muslim immigrants, including many 1000s from largely Muslim Indonesia, a former Dutch colony. As their numbers increase, the Muslims become more and more assertive in carving out a role for Islam within the "host" society. For example, the Dutch TV programme Netwerk reported in June 2009 that Dutch law was being systematically undermined by the growth of Sharia "justice".

An earlier report, "From Dawa to Jihad", by AIVD (the Dutch equivalent to the CIA), concluded that Dutch society is poorly equipped to resist the threat of radical Islam because of "a culture of permissiveness" that has become synonymous with "closing one's eyes to multiple transgressions of the law".

In his letter, Minister Donner said the Dutch government "will distance itself from the relativism contained in the model of a multicultural society." Although society changes, he wrote, it must not be "interchangeable with any other form of society

The email I received was an edited version of the above, and contained the following ending:

ELECTION 2013 IS COMING A Nation of Sheep, Breeds a Government of Wolves! I'M 100% for PASSING THIS ON!!!

Let's Take a Stand!!!
Borders: Closed!
Language: English only!
Culture: English Constitution, is the Bill of Rights!
Drug Free: Mandatory Drug Screening before Welfare!
NO freebies to: Non-Citizens! We the people are coming!!!

MTOW 6th Feb 2013 04:08

One of the better done 'interpretations' of that famous scene - but I'm first to admit, I might think that because of my political prejudii.

Who can remember the first one? If memory serves me correctly, it was a Honda ad., where they offered to replace Adolph's stolen Honda with a BMW, causing him to go into rant overdrive.

The Obeid family seem to think they can treat the Corruption Commission like it's parliamentary question time. I wonder what it will take for the commissioner to declare one or all of them in contempt of court? I also wonder if the taxpayer will ever see a dollar of the Obeid's ill-gotten gains? I'd be thinking NOT!

Worrals in the wilds 6th Feb 2013 04:50

It is very good. For info about the meme:
BBC News - The rise, rise and rise of the Downfall Hitler parody

The original film is well worth seeing if you haven't already, though it's loooong.

So far, IME the political talking point of the day is Super Tax. Another day, another swathe of alienated Labor voters...:ooh:

sisemen 6th Feb 2013 06:14

We also have some rich Labor luvvie friends and we have spent many an evening over a bottle or three of good red arguing the toss. They are totally convinced that Jooliar is doing well and should be applauded in her quest to make "life better for everyone"

On another occasion he related the tale about he was quite pleased that, despite a bit of a windfall in the financial year, he managed to "get away" with paying additional tax and that he had a really great tax accountant who made sure that his annual tax was the absolute minimum.

Andu 6th Feb 2013 06:16

I's have to agree with you re the original film, Worrals. It was excellent, almost a 'must see' for anyone with an even passing interest in WW2, with the actor who played Hitler well deserving the awards he won for playing the role.

It was made all the better (for me at least) when, in the closing credits, they showed what happened post-war to many of the characters. The secretary, (who we see whispering to the smaller woman beside her in 'the clip'), was an unrepentant Nazi into her old age, and the seriously good looking actress who played her was almost a doppelganger.

Somehow, I don't think I'll find myself as enthusiastic about the (doubtlessly Labor-leaning) movie they'll undoubtedly make about the equally unlamented* Downfall we're currently witnessing.

Did I say 'unlamented'? We had a visitor today who told me that she and her husband spent the weekend with quite wealthy friends, but wealthy in the inner-city Labor luvvie mold. Those friends, secure in their wealth, and in between frequent long overseas holidays, think Julia is doing a wonderful job, and that we should look after 'the poor', although they agree that there are an awful lot of 'the poor' who seem to be all too ready to take handouts with no intention of ever doing anything to earn them. Where they live, they've never seen a first generation migrant, let alone an asylum seeker. They'll be voting for Julia, and probably will continue to do so until she does something that affects them directly.

(*my spell checker doesn't like 'unlamented', instead suggesting 'untalented'. Do you think Microsoft might be onto something with that?)

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