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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

Andu 3rd May 2013 23:41

Eighty cents in every dollar of income tax goes to social welfare and the government keeps promising to spend more.
If that's accurate, we're in real trouble. A society spending that proportion of its income on social welfare is unsustainable, as a tranche of Southern European nations are currently proving to the financial world. And now we're looking at adding to the tax bill with a 'levy' (= tax) to PARTIALLY fund a laudable but unaffordable NDIS.

Those who say that we're in for a huge change come September might have a point. I received an email from my daughter yesterday, a forwarded message from a bloke who was once her boss. The message, a very well-written opinion of Gillard compared with Obama as seen by an Australian currently living in the U.S., was damning of Gillard.

Now my daughter is about as apolitical as an apolitical Gen Y'er can get. She just isn't interested in politics. But if she's now reading - and forwarding - emails critical of our PM, the disaffection with Gillard has permeated deep, far deeper than I would have thought possible, into the ranks of Gen Y.

We ca only pray that there are others out there among Generation Y who will see that a vote for the Greens is anything but a protest vote.

500N 3rd May 2013 23:50

"We ca only pray that there are others out there among Generation Y who will see that a vote for the Greens is anything but a protest vote."

IF the Greens had actually put together some serious policies in the last 5 years
- which were not totally green biased / anti business, IMHO this election would
have been the perfect opportunity to capitalise on the Labor cock up and
become a viable third party, as opposed to just a bunch of single issue pollies.

However I think that since they don't sem to be able to think outside of the square I think they will miss this opportunity and it won't come around for quite a while yet.

Thank god as I can't stand them.

7x7 4th May 2013 03:15

Caution: aviation content!!!
Attorney General Mark Dreyfus (aka 'Doofus') refuses to turn his mobile phone off for takeoff, even after the pilot had been called down to tell him to turn it off after he refused the flight attendant request.

Two questions: assuming the pilot went down to the cabin before pushback, why in the world did the captain elect to continue? If still at the gate, surely he would have 'invited' the Hon Mr Dreyfus to vacate his seat and the aircraft? If after pushback, WTF was the pilot doing leaving his seat, and surely, if he'd heard of a pax refusing to turn his phone off, he would have at least considered returning - or threatening to return, on the PA - to the gate?

Question Two: Mr Dreyfus is said to have escaped without official censure (after, according to some reports, Qantas withdrew the complaint) and just a short conversation with the AFP. What would have happened to Joe Public if Joe (or you or me) had refused to turn off his phone and the AFP had met the aircraft after landing?

Two sets of rules for us and 'they who must be obeyed'?

FullOppositeRudder 4th May 2013 04:45

Looking through the various reports offered by Gurgle, there are variations in the published 'facts' of this event.

Some are indeed suggesting that a flight deck person came back to the cabin to have a discussion with the minister, others specifically deny that this took place.

On balance it seems unlikely that the offence developed to the point where such intervention would be necessary, however I guess in a government where Julia rules and reality and common sense is now obscured beyond all belief, anything is possible.

Let's cut the Minister a bit slack here. As thing go from bad to bloody worse, he could well have come straight from a cabinet meeting and been operating in an ongoing state of delusion and disbelief such that the request from the cabin staff went completely un-noticed. After all, we know none of them listen to the 'ordinary' people any more. This could just be a further example.

How much more of this can we endure? September seems so far away......


sisemen 4th May 2013 06:28

132 days, 9 hours and 30 minutes ....but hey, who's counting?

7x7 4th May 2013 07:08

Julia Gillard stops one boat
You couldn't make this up.

Julia Gillard stops one boat | Southern Highland News

Prime Minister Julia Gillard experienced a sinking feeling that she was going down with the ship in Tasmania on Wednesday.

The Prime Minister's flying visit to the north-west included a tour of Devonport's new $4 million Bass Strait Maritime Centre, which was built with federal, state and council funding.

Ms Gillard was invited to take the controls of the 1925 steam ship S.S. Woniora simulator, and as the pictures show she should hang onto her day job, with the good ship Woniora going to the bottom of the Mersey River with the Prime Minister at the helm.

The sheepish-looking Ms Gillard took it in good humour and her efforts amused the crowd of onlookers.

Devonport City Council assistant general manager community Evonne Ewins said the Prime Minister found her sea legs but it was a tough ask.

"I think she took the challenge on very well. It is a very difficult thing to navigate into the Mersey. At the end of the day, although the vessel did sink, she had a great time, as did every one around her," Mrs Ewins said.

"The PM did a full tour of the centre and I think she really enjoyed it.

"I know she was pleased to hear of the employment outcomes from the project," she said.

"There were five trainees jobs including the position at the centre which has become a permanent job."

The Prime Minister did not have time to sail up the Mersey on the restored Julie Burgess but Ms Gillard has an open invitation to sail on the ketch with experienced sailor Devonport Deputy Mayor Graham Kent at the helm.
Could that enlarged, highlighted comment "although the vessel did sink, she had a great time, as did every one around her" be indicative of the shape of things to come on the good ship SS Laborpardee?

RJM 4th May 2013 10:22

including the position at the centre which has become a permanent job
A permanent job!

That's not bad. Who's to say there won't be another permanent job quite soon?

So much for those who have been critical of Gillard's prime ministership!

sisemen 5th May 2013 01:50

Labor can win the election: Gillard - The West Australian

Prime Minister Julia Gillard has given a fiery defence of her chances at the September election, saying she believes Labor can win as the "white noise" of politics falls away.

Ms Gillard was responding to News Ltd reports that Labor MPs were expecting a drubbing at the election, with one unnamed MP predicting a "bloodbath" with the loss of 35-40 seats.

The prime minister admitted on ABC TV on Sunday it had been "politically tough" for the ALP and she had "done some tough things, some unpopular things".

However, she said: "When people vote in September a lot of the white noise that is politics and has been in politics over the last few years will fall away.

"People will be there, in a polling place, with a ballot paper in front of them, and it will be a very clear choice: do I want me as prime minister, Julia Gillard, a majority Labor government, a focus on jobs and on the services my family needs, a clear plan for the future?

"Or do I want the leader of the Opposition, Mr Abbott, with his very clear plan for cutbacks?

"I believe we can win, because at the end of the day Australians are a smart people, the facts matter, the policies matter, and there we are with the right answers."

Ms Gillard said it was her job to lead by example and inject a fighting spirit into her troops.

"I'm doing it here and I'll do it every day," she said.

"We've got to get out and win this, and yes, we are not in a period where it is any time for the faint-hearted."

The prime minister said she had faced negative commentary on the schools funding and disability care reforms, and on Australia's relationship with China, but she had prevailed.

"I'm pretty used to the negative chit-chat, and I'm pretty used to prevailing against that negative chit-chat, and I'll do that again in September," she said.

Slasher 5th May 2013 02:09

a lot of the white noise that is politics
WTF is "white noise"? Why can't these bloody socialists
(or any other useless politicians for that matter) speak
plain English iso inventing unnecessary forms of bullshit?

FullOppositeRudder 5th May 2013 02:45

White noise is a technical term used in electronics; best demonstrated as the hiss noise you hear when an FM receiver is tuned to a clear spot in the spectrum away from any stations, or an aircraft VHF transceiver with the mute / squelch gate open. White noise is sometimes used to deaden other more irritating sounds.

On reflection, white noise could be also now be defined in the wider sense as any speech from (say) Wayne Swan, that is - say anything to divert the attention of the public from what is really happening.

I didn't know Julia was so widely talented as to be familiar with the term. There's also pink noise but we won't tell her about that, although perhaps she already knows, and is saving it for another policy statement. :(

If she does, remember, your heard it first on PPRuNe :ok:

Clare Prop 5th May 2013 04:31

I'm battling with the structure of these sentences.

"I'm pretty used to the negative chit-chat, and I'm pretty used to prevailing against that negative chit-chat, and I'll do that again in September," she said

"I believe we can win, because at the end of the day Australians are a smart people, the facts matter, the policies matter, and there we are with the right answers."


So this is what ejucyshun produces these days?

RJM 5th May 2013 07:00

Hear hear, Clare Prop:

"and yes, we are not in a period where it is any time for the faint-hearted."
She's out of her tree, even for a loser making the best of things.

As if anyone could stand any more of her!

Google Gillard + "the right thing" - you'll get 183,000 examples of that Gillard dribbling that inane phrase.

Andu 5th May 2013 13:12

This bloke makes some very telling points about Stephen Smith's grandiose and totally fanciful announcement of a few days ago about Australia's future Defence acquisitions. Even if Defence is of no interest to you, you should read this, after which, you will be very, very disturbed.


The new Defence White Paper is nothing more than a prop to justify numerous bad decisions; not unlike the DWP of 2009.

For a federal government deep in debt, this new DWP is incompatible with a Defence organization that needs to be frugal.

Management 101 states that one should not embark on a project unless it has a realistic hope of having the proper amount of available resources; a useful timeline toward completion and demonstrates a real need.

The 2013 Defence White Paper refers to numerous projects that go against that kind of practical thinking.

Why is the 2013 Defence White Paper useless? 1) It will not help defend Australia; 2) The people that wrote it don’t give the impression that they are skilled in the military art; 3) DWP 2013 is a vehicle to support rent-seekers and buy votes; 4)The obscene wish list of projects has little hope of being affordable in any future budget.


The submarine replacement requirement is flawed. If one wants all the operational tasks mentioned for a conventional Collins-class replacement, they are unfortunately describing all the capabilities that only a U.S. made, Virginia-class nuclear submarine can perform. If the thought of having that kind of submarine is distasteful for some, then, change the requirement.

The Super Hornet; in its’ Block II form today, would, by itself, be more than a match to face the dangerous legacy air defense environment for the 1999 bombing campaign of Yugoslavia. The Super Hornet EA-18G jamming aircraft is obsolete to emerging threats. The jammer package; sorry, the escort-jammer package in its’ Growler/Grizzly form, is great for Boeing as a sales gimmick. Why? Because appearances matter to a de-skilled Entrenched Defence Bureaucracy. There are no dedicated jammer variants for the Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen. This helps lock in a sales pitch to the clueless. So, sell Australia a jammer package with gear that the U.S. Navy stated years ago was obsolete to emerging threats. Cheerleaders will say, “but there is the next-gen jammer”. True, but it hasn’t been delivered yet; might not arrive if the U.S. Navy is so short on cash they have to park ships and aircraft due to money mismanagement and finally; it will only be on the Super Hornet in a slow, short-ranged, power-limited, drag-o-matic setup that will need lots of tanker-gas to cover a Pacific op.

The F-35; the Entrenched Defence Bureaucracy is so “committed” to this program that we might have an active squadron of this obsolete-to-emerging-threats aircraft by 2020. If one follows the delay trends, it might be longer than 20 years after Defence Minister Hill and friends made their dumb mistake to pick a completely unknown capability. Roll the roulette wheel. Defence has also not figured out how to sustain this aircraft which could have a cost per flying hour twice that of the Super Hornet.

Adding to the gold-plated hardware wishes, the non-thinking Entrenched Defence Bureaucracy believes that if it is new, it must be good. For example: Australia does not need Boeing P-8 patrol aircraft. It needs to be frugal and upgrade existing P-3 patrol aircraft.

There are several more impediments for the new DWP. The welfare state is the mission of the seriously in-debt Australian government. The current spend-thrift leadership hates business and thinks it can tax its' way to prosperity. In this environment any conversation of Defence spending needed as a percentage of GDP can only be looked at as ignorant thinking buy the alleged Defence intelligencia. This statement from the new DWP is meaningless: "As Australia’s financial and economic circumstances allow, the Government will want to grow the Defence budget to around two per cent of Gross Domestic Product."

Defence will get whatever money there is after the welfare-state gets its annual fief; and, not until then.

And Reform?

Defence has no plans to shed failed programs like the MRH-90 and ARH Tiger helicopters. These platforms suck up money best used by other communities in Defence that provide actual worth.

The Entrenched Defence Bureaucracy and the writers of the new DWP seem to be unable to understand the fact that a top NCO or unit commander is not allowed perform proper discipline activities. Give that responsibility. A good NCO can stop adverse discipline trends quickly and effectively. This saves millions of dollars in government commissions that do not address how to stop root-cause military discipline failures.

The U.S. military-industrial congressional complex (like the Australian Entrenched Defece Bureaucracy) is now so corrupt and moribund that Pacific Rim deterrence will suffer greatly. The U.S. Air Force has large amounts of old aircraft and suffers from such high level management incompetence that it is unable to live within its means and is thus parking aircraft and cutting significant amounts of flying hours.

The U.S. Navy is in a similar situation where ships and aircraft are being parked because of poor money management and misplaced priorities. The aircraft that fly off of U.S. aircraft carriers now and into the future are obsolete to emerging threats. The real symbol of the U.S. Pacific pivot to Asia is the defective and often broken-down, new, littoral combat ship that would get shot up and sunk by many kinds of low end threats.

The USMC will depend on air domination from the above mentioned services and, there may be many events where there are not enough, or any, F-22s.

Lack of air domination is paid for with hundreds and thousands of casualties.

Of the frontline U.S. Army fighting vehicles, none of them can swim or ford a river properly. This makes them useless for the Pacific.

All of this is the kind of U.S. military backup Australia is hoping for in its' new Defence White Paper.

Interesting to look at the flip side of all of this:

Indonesia has newer and capable combat aircraft, super-sonic anti-ship missiles (the U.S. Navy and RAN have none) and AFVs that can swim (BMP-3). That is not to hold Indonesia up as a great threat. It only illustrates a very serious point in how far the U.S. has slipped with its' poor ideas of what defines a useful force structure. Indonesia appears to have a better grasp of its’ littoral defense needs than either Australia or the U.S. have of their Pacific Rim defense needs.

The new Defence White Paper should be treated with as much contempt as possible for wasting everyone’s time on such an empty document.

The new Defence White Paper fails to address Australia's core security needs.

Will this disease of poor military planning cost Australia lost battles; a lost war?

Clare Prop 5th May 2013 13:56

If it's anything like their Aviation white paper then it is just that, a piece of paper. Worthless and meaningless, nothing has changed.

criticalmass 5th May 2013 21:19

Q: What's the difference between a Defence White Paper and a roll of toilet paper?

A: Very little. One cleans the public's a**es, the other protects defence officials' a*ses.

Andu 5th May 2013 22:55

What's really upsetting many within the ADF is that, not only is this government slashing and burning expenditure on Defence to a level far, far beyond what's safe, but that all too many of the projects they are spending mega billions on are buying the wrong or inappropriate equipment.

The Department of Defence would be better named the Department of Defence Industry, for the decisions on what to buy are factored more around propping up (almost always foreign owned) defence establishments in the 'right' electorates, sometimes at far, far higher prices than we could buy them off the shelf, rather than giving out soldiers, sailors and airmen the best and most appropriate kit for the best price.

There is also the horror of 'Australianising' equipment that works fine, but that we 'can do better' - which usually ends up costing far more, involves huge delays, and all too often DOESN'T BLOODY WORK!

Andu 5th May 2013 23:00

Most will remember the great fanfare that accompanied the announcement by Julia Gillard of the 30% pay rise that health care workers.

Now it's been reported (ABC's AM programme this morning) that those pay rises will go only to 30% of health care workers. So people doing exactly the same job will be earning 30% more than 70% of their peers, who just happen to work in areas (like privately owned nursing homes) not 'blessed' by Julia's largesse.

For some obscure reason, Minister Kate Ellis was not available for comment.

500N 5th May 2013 23:01


You put that so well :D:D:D:D:D

"Australianising" :ok:

I never knew we fought wars so differently to everyone else,
especially the US.

When we do buy off the shelf, we seem to do well.
C5, FA18 etc.

We seem to have a very good "in" with the US re getting
access to gear (the only country to get the Growler),
I don't know why we don't capitalize on it more.

BenThere 5th May 2013 23:21

If I could put on the hat of an Australian, I would adopt a comprehensive defense doctrine independent of US input, and resist focusing on narrow capabilities.

Australia should develop an independent nuclear deterrent, ASAP, and acquire systems focused on tactical defense of the continent. That'll protect you from China. I don't believe the US will.

Buster Hyman 6th May 2013 02:12

Hi Ben.

I think you'll find that most Aussies are quite happy to not have a Nuclear capability, myself included. Think of it as one of those weird Aussie idiosyncrasies, like gun control. :ok:

500N 6th May 2013 02:18


Tactical defense of the continent ?

With our coastline ?

Re Nuclear, I agree but we would never get it, too many wankers
in Gov't and around them.

BenThere 6th May 2013 02:20

Good on yer, Mate. Think you're wrong, though, Buster.

Buster Hyman 6th May 2013 02:35

Cheers Ben. No worries. :ok:

The way I see it, if we can't stop Indonesian or Sri Lankan fishing boats sailing into our harbours undetected, then stopping China doing the same is a lost cause!

I understand the background of the 'Superpowers' needing their nuclear deterrent, but we'd just make a mess if we had one. Besides, all those bleeding heart protestors would never finish their Degrees in Social Science because they'd be too busy protesting. It'd cause an awful backlog in the University system.

Andu 6th May 2013 02:36

It would send the Greenies apoplectic, but Australia should go part way in the nuke stakes and buy/lease nuclear-powered submarines. Even if you disregard the obvious tactical shortcomings of a diesel boat, with the ranges involved in any meaningful deployment of an Australian submarine, (it just isn't possible to have a sub. base within useful refuelling range of all the Australian coastline, let alone where the Navy would like to be able to deploy them), the nuclear power option is the only one that makes sense. Any money spent on a diesel class of boat to replace the Collins class - (as Labor/DMO are currently doing, to prop up jobs in South Australia) - is a total waste of precious defence funds and would be better spent on something - anything - useful. Like a helicopter that works and we can afford to operate. Or an armoured vehicle that works. Or an air warfare destroyer that works. Or an amphibious landing ship that the Navy will be game to put in harm's way (unlike the behemoths we're currently buying).

7x7 6th May 2013 03:20

I saw this on the Michael Smith site. Surely it must be untrue? Would she really say something like this?

Last night at the NSW Lebanese Society Bankstown Gillard said. We cannot rest until all Cultures that come into AUST. are valued as AUST. Cultures and this could never occur under the term AUSTRALIA DAY. We must move from the old term AUSTRALIA DAY and call it CITIZENS DAY from 2014". This is a travesty. Surely there can be no votes in this suggestion. I thought
immigrants came here because we are AUSTRALIA and not what left behind???

500N 6th May 2013 03:25

If she said that, we are well and truly stuffed.

Absolutely stuffed.

Slasher 6th May 2013 03:29

...Oz with nuclear armament? Never considered the possibility
due to the calibre and commie bunch of politicians continually
in power, although a medium nuclear asenal does make sense.

The questionis how would it upset the balance of power in the
Asia Pacific? Something I've never thought about.

Pinky the pilot 6th May 2013 03:32

Oh I dunno, 500N. September isn't all that far away and if Gillard really did say that and it is reported widely enough I suspect it will just make things even worse for her.

One can but hope.

The questionis how would it upset the balance of power in the
Asia Pacific? Something I've never thought about.
Probably make a few near Asian neighbours somewhat upset, and more that a little nervous Slasher.

How are you btw?

500N 6th May 2013 03:36

I found one reference to it on line but I have to cross check it
to make sure it is not a spoof.

The questionis how would it upset the balance of power in the
Asia Pacific? Something I've never thought about.

I reckon it would upset the balance of power.

I reckon a few of them would go and get it as well if we did.
Indonesia for one.

Buster Hyman 6th May 2013 03:42

7x7's quote is a hoax. Done the rounds a few times.

Probably make a few near Asian neighbours somewhat upset
Wasn't that what the F111's were for? :E

I reckon a few of them would go and get it as well if we did.
Indonesia for one.
Congratulations! You Sir have just won the Internet! :D

500N 6th May 2013 03:46


"7x7's quote is a hoax. Done the rounds a few times."

Yes, that's what I thought because I could only find one
reference to it and a PM's speech normally comes up
with a lot more than that.

PM sent to you.

Pinky the pilot 6th May 2013 03:51

Wasn't that what the F111's were for
Probably were but we don't have them anymore, do we!

And the quote a hoax? Ah well, still won't change the election result anyway.

Ex FSO GRIFFO 6th May 2013 04:01

ONLY 130 'Sleeps' to go.......


Buster Hyman 6th May 2013 04:04

Ah well, still won't change the election result anyway.
Thank Gawd!! :D

Pity about those F111's though...

7x7 6th May 2013 05:48

I thought the 'Kulchur Day' sounded a bit fake.

I see one Liberal backbencher has called Tony Abbott's stupidly overgenerous middle class welfare plan to pay women on maternity leave their full wage up to $75,000 pa "an albatross around the coalition's neck".

He's 100% right, and we can only hope Abbott faces a full scale revolt over this stupidity and he is forced to renege on this promise.

dat581 6th May 2013 07:52

Well if one country on earth could get away with developing nukes in secret it would have to be Australia. Lots of our own uranium, enough technical know how and thousands of empty square kilometres of land that no satellites would bother looking at.

Do we need them? If we were threatened with nuclear strikes I can't imagine the Americans let alone the British letting it stand.

500N 6th May 2013 08:00

Just put a few more sheds up at Pine Gap or
Woomera. No one would notice :O

Or the secret base at Exmouth.

Worrals in the wilds 6th May 2013 08:09

They'd probably insist on developing their own nukes on the cheap instead of buying an off-the-shelf model, and we'd end up with the nuke equivalent of a Collins Class submarine :eek:.

Captain Sand Dune 6th May 2013 08:15

Nukes? Bring it on!! Why do we worry about what other countries in the region think. They don't seem to give a fcuk about our opinions on their actions!
And let's get nuclear power stations as well. That'll keep the anti-coal anti-everything lobby happy!:E

500N 6th May 2013 08:27

Talking of anti nuke.

About mid 80's when the anti nuke lot were getting into top gear,
many of the local councils in Melbourne went with a "no nuclear"

Well, no nuke signs went up everywhere, including right out side
quite a few hospitals, who are one of the biggest users of nuclear
and the biggest generators of nuclear waste.

But of course that was totally lost on the do gooders :O

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