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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

prospector 1st Sep 2012 05:20


"If Western armies would just piss off and leave us alone we could get on with it and fix the problems ourselves, then we could all go home"
One could really empathise with that feeling. Who would be happy with foreign troops occupying your country??

hellsbrink 1st Sep 2012 05:25


As a lovely Afghan taxi driver told me not long ago "If Western armies would just piss off and leave us alone we could get on with it and fix the problems ourselves, then we could all go home"
The problem with that something he knows, they wouldn't.

You should have asked that lovely Afghan taxi driver why he doesn't go home now to help the Western armies fix things now, meaning they leave sooner, but then you would be accused of racism.

Clare Prop 1st Sep 2012 05:36

He'd been in the country (UK) for many years, was in his fifties and all his kids grew up in the UK and were at university, but he still said he would prefer to be back in Afghanistan and not have his extended family scattered all over the globe.

But yes I agree all these fit young men are a different story to this older gent and it's hard for us who were brought up on the ANZAC and in my case British spirit, to empathise with people who "flee" when were are people who would stand and fight to the last man/woman to defend our way of life and never run away leaving vulnerable family members behind...:mad:

hellsbrink 1st Sep 2012 05:45

There's still nothing to stop him going back and setting up some sort of business to survive, or be a driver there.

Doesn't matter which way you look at it, he made a comment about a situation which he would not put himself in which we see clearly due to him being in the UK for "many years".

If he was truly concerned about his own country, why didn't he "try to fix it" when the Taleban first started trying to get power, why didn't he go back after the troops went in? The answer to that is simple, he doesn't actually care as he and his family get everything they need in their adopted homeland and, given the chance, he would have his extended family there too instead of him putting his money where his mouth is and going "home" to help fix the problems.

I don't blame him for wanting to stay in the UK, but he's being a hypocrite as he wouldn't go back and do something for the benefit of his "Fatherland" whilst telling the world and it's dog that if the troops left "we could get on with it and fix the problems ourselves, then we could all go home" when he left the country long ago instead of "fixing the problems" that caused the troops to go in in the first case.

Captain Sand Dune 1st Sep 2012 06:14

Looks like the latest boat load of illegal immigrants are rather upset at not getting to their preferred destination. After being rather miffed that the HMAS Maitland was not a cruise ship and that they weren’t treated accordingly, they really lost their respective rags (pun, no pun. You take your pick:E) when they realised they were going to be turned over to the Indonesians. One of them even accused an RAN officer of lying. Looks like they need to seek a refund from their “travel agent”.:}

As a lovely Afghan taxi driver told me not long ago "If Western armies would just piss off and leave us alone we could get on with it and fix the problems ourselves, then we could all go home"
So he’s happy to confide to a Westerner while in a Western country about how Western armies are stuffing it up? Methinks he doth protest too much.

SOPS 1st Sep 2012 07:09

And yet another lot have just been stopped near Christmas!!!!! Said in my best bogan voice.."Another boat..another policy failure". How many "iregular maratime arrivals:yuk:" did we have in August? Sept 1..and 62 have already arrived!!!

Clare Prop 1st Sep 2012 07:27

hellsbrink, I'm not defending the guy, just reporting what he said, in the context of how all the western interference in the world wont make any difference and these people should be left alone to do things thier way; also that (according to him) they don't want to go back while there are foreign soldiers illegally occupying their country.

Capt Sand Dune he was telling me this because I asked him and I was genuinely interested in his point of view. It was quite a long journey and it was very interesting and enjoyable talking to this man. Just because I'm a Westerner doesn't mean I blindly support everything my government says I should think. Far, far, far from it.


So, as I see it, we should bring our soldiers home, then not only will they not be getting killed for nothing (sorry Juliar but "it's the roight thing to doy" isn't good enough or even true) but the Afghans might just stop coming here/ agree to go back. I'm sure it's not really that simple but...I'm as sick of this as anyone. :ugh:

Worrals in the wilds 1st Sep 2012 07:40


"If Western armies would just piss off and leave us alone we could get on with it and fix the problems ourselves, then we could all go home"
How much time do they need? The place has been a basket case for a loooong time.
I do feel sorry for people who had to leave their homeland because of war, famine or other horrible reasons. It must be absolutely terrible to get on the boat (or aircraft these days) not knowing where it's going to Oz, Canada or the US, with nothing more than what you could stuff in a suitcase and filled with worry about the people who are left behind. :sad:

I have seen legitimate refugees arriving from Africa and Burma with a single plastic bag containing all their worldy possessions; often nothing more than a couple of cooking pots and some jewellry. It's no better for them than it was for so many Irish, Italians and Greeks, and the later arriving Viets and Cambodians.

However, sooner or later you've got to make the choice; go back or start afresh and help build the new homeland. There are plenty of people descended from the aforementioned nationalities who are 100% successful Aussies, thanks to the work ethic and family values their anscestors brought with them from so many places.

My ancestors did just that, and so did plenty of other people during the 20th and 21st centuries. Sure there are the times when everyone from the Old Country (whatever Old Country that may be) sits around to reminisce, sing sad songs, wear stupid clothes and drink whatever frightful quaffer the ancestors brewed up from grape stalks, coconut husks or old cheese :yuk:, but after the grappa's been drunk and the songs have been sung, you've got to decide where your life is and live it accordingly.

So he’s happy to confide to a Westerner while in a Western country about how Western armies are stuffing it up? Methinks he doth protest too much.
My absolute favourite example of this happened to two army mates, dressed in full mess kit leaving the United Service Club after a very boozy occasion. Their ethnic cabbie proceeded to lecture them about the evil western forces in his country and was quite shocked when they told him to pull over so they could get another cab and leave him to it.

That was the hard way, too...:E

CoodaShooda 1st Sep 2012 08:11


A bit smelly, IMHO
Thanks Worrals. I'm of a similar view.

I've managed to source it back to a strident anti-communist author from the 50's.

A lot of what he's written seems to have come to fruition - but whether it's all due to a communist plot or just foreseeable social change, I'll go with the latter.

hellsbrink 1st Sep 2012 08:12


So, as I see it, we should bring our soldiers home, then not only will they not be getting killed for nothing (sorry Juliar but "it's the roight thing to doy" isn't good enough or even true) but the Afghans might just stop coming here/ agree to go back. I'm sure it's not really that simple
But that will never stop the Afghans from "emigrating" via the asylum route, nor will it mean any go back. After all, how many Bosnian and Kosovars have returned "home" (as one example) and how many are still actually travelling to various countries and claiming "asylum" despite the threat from long ago being gone? And how many of these "Afghan refugees" are actually genuine refugees and how many are actually Afghan? We don't know, do we.

There lies the problem. The altruistic view that somehow people will "go home" when things are classed as "safe" is a fantasy, they don't go back. Sure, the vast majority will contribute to society by working, etc, when they are allowed to but, ultimately, they're staying.

Clare Prop 1st Sep 2012 08:42

Not disagreeing with you, just reporting a point of view from an Afghan who had built a good life for himself and his family in another country.

Personally I find it hard to reconcile people who think we should take part in invading and occupying other countries and then grumble that their people are "invading and occupying" ours. I'm not referring to anyone on this thread when I say that BTW. Just an observation.

As a legal migrant who had to jump through years of hoops I am as sick of the country shoppers and the people who facilitate them as anyone.

hellsbrink 1st Sep 2012 08:57

That may the case, Clare, but did your Afghan taxi driver arrive before or after the 2001 invasion? Let's face it, it would seem it was before since his kids have grown up in the UK and gone to Uni in the UK, so that brings me back to the "hypocrisy" part as he would have been likely to have been in the UK BEFORE the US-led coalition of states went into Afghanistan!

Now, I can "reconcile" the very thing you say you can't. Think about it and think about how many people fled Afghanistan before the 2001 "invasion". Think how many would still be coming over without the "invasion", think of how many more would have "disappeared" without the invasion, etc. Now, nobody in their right mind would want to refuse entry to genuine refugees, but since virtually every single one has happily passed countless cities in a large number of countries to get to "the lands of milk and honey", only those who fly DIRECTLY to a country without stopping at an intermediate point in between can truly be classed as "refugees" as the rest have all had a chance to state their claim elsewhere, then in the mind of myself and a hell of a lot of others they are nothing more than economic migrants abusing the asylum system to get the benefits of immigration without having to go through the immigration process. That means we, and I don't just mean the UK, Belgium, Australia or any specific country but mean everywhere, have an issue of UNCONTROLLED immigration due to that abuse and that is the issue that is at the forefront of the "asylum debate".

Tell me how many of these "boat people", to bring things back to Oz, have even made the slightest attempt to claim refugee status in any state on the sea route to Oz, or how many of the Afghans have claimed refugee status in Pakistan (which is one of their neighbouring countries), and explain to me why they are "refugees" when they refuse to make that claim until they get to one of the various countries they class as a "land of milk and honey".

Clare Prop 1st Sep 2012 09:14

OH, dear. This was not about the merits of this particular taxi driver, who was driving me in a cab in London not Australia BTW not that that was relevant, but about his observation that it would be better if the western powers just pissed off and left the Afghans alone to sort out their own issues. It wasn't supposed to be a comment on "boat people" per se.

I'll repeat the last line of my last post:

As a legal migrant who had to jump through years of hoops I am as sick of the country shoppers and the people who facilitate them as anyone.

Charlie Foxtrot India 1st Sep 2012 09:23

Perhaps hellsbrink's questions need to be adressed to his local MP.

Meanwhile read posts before having a go at the posters. You might be surprised.

CoodaShooda 1st Sep 2012 09:34


Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Emma Lazarus, 1883
....................................

hellsbrink 1st Sep 2012 09:54

Clare

I don't want to get into an argument with you but do you not see that pulling the troops out of Afghanistan will do the square root of sod all in regard to Afghans seeking "asylum" in other countries and will not result in one Afghan "returning" either.

As I say, how many Bosnians and Kosovars "returned" because their country was made "safe" from the Serbs? Not many, yet you say that pulling the troops out of Afghanistan will make the asylum shoppers go home! That ain't going to happen, no matter what your taxi driver says.

As said, Afghans have been claiming refugee status for long before the 2001 invasion, see here, so explain why they would go back if the troops were pulled out as the whole situation over there is far more complicated than something a taxi driver who would never return actually says.

glad rag 1st Sep 2012 10:11


has been identified as that of one Julia Gillard
sorry but if it had her sig or stamp on it then yes but there is NO PROOF of anything on that piece of paper.

Unfortunately for Australia.

hellsbrink 1st Sep 2012 10:14

Apart from her previous admission of drawing up the paper, when she was a "young and naive" lawyer in her 30's

glad rag 1st Sep 2012 20:53

Well, if that is the case, it should have been emphasized by Ovation in his post as it is pretty damming.

allan907 2nd Sep 2012 02:59

It seems that her latest tactic is to announce wonderful touchy-feely programmes which cost billions but are scheduled for implementation after they've been kicked out.

Then the great unwashed blame it on the incoming Government, and this current government when in opposition (assuming that there are enough of them to form an opposition) have something to attack the Government.

In short, Gillard, as well as being a liar is also an unprincipled scumbag.


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