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-   -   UK politics - Hamsterwheel (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/411282-uk-politics-hamsterwheel.html)

sidevalve 1st Oct 2018 06:45


Originally Posted by Krystal n chips (Post 10262715)
True, we are, a maritime nation....this is rather essential if , being an island and surrounded by water, a nation wishes to make contact with the outside world, but we've never been outward looking thereafter. Had you said inward looking, and the UK is infamous for insularity and the belief it's the epicentre of the known world, then you would have produced two factual statements but, alas, the last bit about "our democratic systems" would have negated your otherwise almost commendable effort.

You should read some history. Of course, you'll have your own interpretation no doubt.. but to say that the UK has never been outward-looking ignores historical facts. For 50+ years, Britain was the world's largest trading nation. We still have a global trading presence, albeit reduced from the 19th C dominance. No-one here (except you) has ever claimed that the UK is the epicentre of the known world.

ORAC 1st Oct 2018 07:35

POLITICO:

Speaking of a People’s Vote: More exclusive polling this morning from U.S. campaign strategy firm GQR Research and shared with POLITICO shows the outcome would be much too close to call. Asked to choose between accepting whatever Brexit deal the prime minister is able to negotiate or remaining in the EU — the referendum question favored by the People’s Vote campaign — respondents backed Remain by 40 percent to 39, with the rest undecided, the poll found. And faced with a choice between May’s deal and no deal, those surveyed backed the prime minister by 35 percent to 33, but with nearly a third undecided. More details here.

Which probably explains why: Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer is rumored to have told friends there is no way he would countenance having “no deal” on the ballot paper of any second referendum. This polling suggests it would have a decent chance of winning......


Pontius Navigator 1st Oct 2018 08:39


Originally Posted by sidevalve (Post 10262729)
. No-one here (except you) has ever claimed that the UK is the epicentre of the known world.

Oh. 😕

And I thought God was an Englishman.

ORAC 1st Oct 2018 08:59

“This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle, This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars, This other Eden, demi-paradise, This fortress built by Nature for herself Against infection and the hand of war, This happy breed of men, this little world, This precious stone set in the silver sea, Which serves it in the office of a wall Or as a moat defensive to a house, Against the envy of less happier lands,– This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.”

William Shakespeare

sidevalve 1st Oct 2018 08:59


Originally Posted by sidevalve (Post 10262729)
No-one here (except you) has ever claimed that the UK is the epicentre of the known world.


Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator (Post 10262797)
Oh. 😕
And I thought God was an Englishman.

OK, apart from K n C and PN..

sitigeltfel 1st Oct 2018 09:30


Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat (Post 10262506)
... and of course there are historical models for nationalistic festivals of hate, so no need to spend much of that £120m on creative directors ...


Ah yes, the attempted domination of Europe by a mad German chancellor...


...not forgetting the last one...


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....7fdb153784.jpg

Sallyann1234 1st Oct 2018 09:37

It seems the blame game is well under way.
With the sort of hate being displayed here, I'm sure the EU will be glad to be finally rid of us.

wiggy 1st Oct 2018 09:49

...Good grief........


Krystal n chips 1st Oct 2018 10:00


Originally Posted by sidevalve (Post 10262816)
OK, apart from K n C and PN..

Actually, PN, setting a precedent here, is almost correct.!

The current incarnation is a Mr J. Anderson

Previously a Mr S.Gerrard.

Other nations have also laid claim to this title.

A Mr G.Best for N.I., there was also a Mr I.Paisley although he got a bit over enthusiastic as to his representation here on Earth.

A Mr B. Shankly should also be mentioned, albeit his parish and disciples was limited

Finally, Wales, who had a surfeit of such deities during the time they ruled the R.U.world.

I hope this exemplifies my pragmatism in answer to your observation.

And we thank ORAC for today's enhancement of the topic with a suitably jingoistic piece of English litrityore.., thankfully not translated into Latin.

sidevalve 1st Oct 2018 10:48

Non-French speakers look away now..

Link to interesting viewpoint from across the Channel on how Brexit will change the UK and its relationship with the EU.

Marc Roche, a Belgian, was the London correspondent for Le Figaro (a right wing French broadsheet) for 25 years. He is pro-EU and says he would have voted Remain had he had a vote. He thinks the UK is in for some short term pain - but longer term we will pose a threat to the EU as we deregulate and attract significant foreign investment. He's just written a book - Le Brexit va réussir (Brexit is going to succeed).
============================================================ ============
From The Times:

Mon dieu! It is being hailed as possibly the most sensational conversion since Emperor Constantine embraced Christianity. Marc Roche, the Belgian-born former City of London correspondent for the arch Euro-federalist French daily Le Monde, and an eminent standard-bearer of the Europhile cultural establishment, has just published a book entitled Le Brexit va Réussir (Brexit will Succeed).

He says that once Britain leaves the EU, it has the wherewithal not just to survive but to prosper. Cue utter stupefaction in France where it is an article of faith that there can be no life outside the EU, and where wanting to leave it is viewed as proof of mental derangement (no similarity with Britain’s Remainers, obviously).

Roche himself used to share that general view. So what made him change his mind? He did something considered unthinkable in such refined circles. He went and spoke to people outside the metropolitan London bubble.

What he discovered was a different world which rapidly exposed the shallowness of his previous assumptions. Far from the Brexit vote being fuelled by white racists, he discovered that a “significant number” of people from ethnic minorities had backed Leave.

Instead of the universities being cut off from international scholarship, they were constructing a new global future for themselves. As for the City of London, he concluded, Brexit would liberate it to multiply its traditional assets: its time zone, the English language, the common law and its know-how in financial engineering.

It comes to something when a Belgian-born French journalist grasps realities about Britain that so many Brits themselves cannot perceive. That’s largely because the metropolitan classes are conditioned by a self-referential way of thinking. Well-heeled, well-educated people committed to multiculturalism, globalisation and other progressive causes tend to mix only with people like themselves.

This insulates them so completely they didn’t see Brexit coming. Now they attempt to explain it away by damning Leave voters as stupid or bigoted. The suggestion that they were voting for anything sensible or decent, such as independent self-government or democracy, is dismissed out of hand. The idea that the world’s fifth-largest economy would fare much better when unshackled from a protection racket whose purpose is to smash all competition is waved away as imbecilic. Only those motivated by xenophobia and racism, we are told, could have set themselves against the self-evident truths of Remain.
<snip>
This profound division causes those in the metropolitan bubble to get their society spectacularly wrong. The irony is that such people, who pride themselves on being open to ideas, are in fact stupendously narrow. Over the past couple of years, many a fashionable London dinner party has been ruined by the discovery of a Brexiteer among the guests who is regarded with as much horror as a mouse-dropping in the guacamole.

By contrast, those outside the bubble who are reviled as insular and closed-minded are exposed all the time to the metropolitan worldview, which assails them through every part of the culture. So their conclusions, formed under continuous fire, have rather firmer foundations.

Now those people, in Britain, Europe and the US, are in revolt. The context varies but in essence the revolt is against the alternative universe that has been constructed behind the invisible walls of social class and education by people intent upon remaking the whole world in their image.

They really can’t conceive of anything outside it that’s worthwhile, including the western nation and its values of citizenship, cultural identity and the rule of sovereign law. That’s why the fight over both Brexit and Trump is so visceral. And that’s why Roche is becoming a British citizen.

Trossie 1st Oct 2018 11:28

KnC, just for you:

Hoc solium regum, hoc valida fulcis isle: Hæc terram de maiestatem, haec sedes Martis, hic aliud voluptatis a principio, ex semideis paradisum: Istud castrum illud a natura ad se contra infectio et manus belli, hoc beatum genus acre uirum, hoc paulo mundi iste preciosus lapis posuit in portum argentatum, quod est in officium de pariete aut in fossis defensus ad domum, contra invidiam et minus beatior agros, - hic beatus insidias, hic terrae huius regni, quod Anglia.

(All corrections from genuine classicists welcome!)

Effluent Man 1st Oct 2018 11:37

Ok well a second referendum is too close to call. I accept that but what alternative is there? All other options appear to have been closed off. Another referendum with a final outcome seems fine to me. I will abide by whatever the outcome is from Remain to No Deal.

Grayfly 1st Oct 2018 11:51


Originally Posted by Trossie (Post 10262942)
KnC, just for you:

Hoc solium regum, hoc valida fulcis isle: Hæc terram de maiestatem, haec sedes Martis, hic aliud voluptatis a principio, ex semideis paradisum: Istud castrum illud a natura ad se contra infectio et manus belli, hoc beatum genus acre uirum, hoc paulo mundi iste preciosus lapis posuit in portum argentatum, quod est in officium de pariete aut in fossis defensus ad domum, contra invidiam et minus beatior agros, - hic beatus insidias, hic terrae huius regni, quod Anglia.

The EU might borrow this one.
Sed si esset dare in quid de re inchoata, et conveniunt ad nos, vel nostrum regnum subditos ad Rex Anglia vel Anglica, et ubi sit pes ipsi statim ut expellam eum e cum nostris hostibus ac subversor, suo iure, et nostra tueri et alium hominem bene nobis regem et quod quamdiu manet et centum ex nobis vivit, et nos in aliquo non recte sub conditionibus imperio Anglis.

Perhaps there should be a thread just for JRM.

Hussar 54 1st Oct 2018 11:52


Originally Posted by Effluent Man (Post 10262949)
Ok well a second referendum is too close to call. I accept that but what alternative is there? All other options appear to have been closed off. Another referendum with a final outcome seems fine to me. I will abide by whatever the outcome is from Remain to No Deal.


What's wrong with just going with the result of the referendum which has already taken place ??

Trossie 1st Oct 2018 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by neila83 https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
You'd think by now they might have realised its the 21sy century and anisland nation going it alone isn't really so smart.​​​​​​
Has anyone told New Zealand?

For per capita GDP: only 11 EU countries (excluding the UK*) have a higher per capita GDP than New Zealand (with only two of those countries having populations smaller than New Zealand); New Zealand has a higher per capita GDP than the other 16 EU countries.

* The UK does have a higher per capita GDP than New Zealand. I only excluded it because it is, unlike the remainder of the EU, also 'an island nation'; also it will shortly no longer be an EU country, so just 'thinking ahead'.

Trossie 1st Oct 2018 12:11


Originally Posted by Hussar 54 (Post 10262962)
What's wrong with just going with the result of the referendum which has already taken place ??

It would be wrong not to go with the result of the referendum which has already taken place.

The Cameron government sent out a glossy brochure to all households stating very clearly what 'leave' would mean. Nobody can say that they didn't know what they were voting for. It happened. Live with it.

ORAC 1st Oct 2018 13:08

Grayfly - Tacitus, “Agricola”

”Ipsī Britannī dīlēctum ac tribūta et iniūncta imperiī mūnia impigrē obeunt, sī iniūriae absint: hās aegrē tolerant, iam domitī ut pāreant, nōndum ut serviant. Igitur prīmus omnium Rōmānōrum dīvus Iūlius cum exercitū Britanniam ingressus, quamquam prōspera pugna terruerit incolās ac lītore potītus sit, potest vidērī ostendisse posterīs, nōn trādidisse.”

Grayfly 1st Oct 2018 13:51

They certainly do!

sitigeltfel 1st Oct 2018 17:02


Originally Posted by Trossie (Post 10262982)
Nobody can say that they didn't know what they were voting for.

The irony is that those making that statement are the same ones who claim Brexit voters are thick!

Effluent Man 1st Oct 2018 18:47

I said from day one that insufficient verifiable information was available to make a decision. We were treated to a whole panoply of lies and half truths in advance of the vote. At least now we have the opportunity to put that right. Once we know the deal let's have the vote proper. If people are happy with Toyota and JLR slinging their hooks after Brexit then so be it.


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