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Argentina and The Falkland Isles

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Argentina and The Falkland Isles

Old 13th Apr 2022, 10:25
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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In autumn, 1914, Admiral Craddock had a force of out gunned and obsolete cruisers, manned by some what inexperienced reservists. He went searching for the German East Asiatic fleet under Von Spee, who were cruising the west coast of South America, looking for British merchant shipping to sink. The Germans had little problem in sinking Craddock's ships and then headed for the Falkland Islands. The Admiralty had reinforced the islands :with the beached Canopus ( a pre dreadnought battleship) which had been ground at Stanley to be defence battery, while Admiral Sturdee had the battle cruisers Invincible, Inflexible, the armoured cruisers Carnarvon, Cornwall and Kent, light cruisers Bristol and Glasgow and Armed Merchant Cruiser HMS Macedonia. The Germans had two armoured cruisers, Scharnhorst and Gneisnau, light cruisers Nurnburg, Dresden and Leipzig and three colliers. A sunny day, low wind, smooth sea, good visibility....By 1830, it was all over and only two German ships escaped - the light cruise Dresden and auxiliary Seydlitz..

Shades of 1982.....Muriel Felton, the wife of the sheep station manager at Fitzroy, having been informed by telephone of the German ships approach, had her two maids Christine Goss and Marian Macleod riding to the top of a nearby hill, and coming back to report on the observed movement of the German ships. This was relayed to Stanley by Mrs Felton.....Not dissimilar to the 1982 telephone call asking if there were any Argentines around....
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 10:58
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How useful is the Falkland's to military operations in that area? I seem to recall it was used during the Battle of the River Plate to repair, refuel RN ships?
So where is the closest deep water port and Aerodrome, not on the South American Continent?

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Old 13th Apr 2022, 14:10
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Could you imagine if the UK demanded all of the countries they once ruled back, as proposterous as Russia's claims.



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Old 13th Apr 2022, 17:53
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Why is Hawaii missing off that Map ?
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 19:02
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Could you imagine if the UK demanded all of the countries they once ruled back, as proposterous as Russia's claims.
Interesting map - where did it come from?

It's the wrong colour, of course - in the old maps, the 'British Empire' was coloured pink, not red.

And I'm not sure of its accuracy in some places. For example, when did the UK rule Madagascar?
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 19:31
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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I suspect it is when you call the date, as it was re occupied post French surrender in 1940 and maybe then classed as British though I suspect not by inhabitants or at least those who had a vote.

Cheers
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Old 14th Apr 2022, 04:56
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Looking at Argentinian economic, political, and military history I can see why the people of the Falklands would be reluctant to accept Argentinian sovereignty.
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Old 14th Apr 2022, 07:22
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Nutty,

The current shower of sh**e can't run one country, let alone half the world. Jeez, I wouldn't even trust Bojo to run a bath...
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Old 14th Apr 2022, 13:27
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Originally Posted by uxb99 View Post
......What concerns me is do we have sufficient military hardware to contest another incursion?......
leaving politics out of it, a military analysis would suggest very much yes. A better question might be could Argentina make an incursion? Some point to consider:

UK:
- a much more robust presence on the islands than the token garrison in 1982. This force has a small number of interceptors, ground based radars, air defense systems, ground forces, rotary support, etc. An effective deterrent and capable of making things far from a walk ashore invasion.
- A similar Naval expeditionary force that could be sortied and centered on 2 STOVL carriers and air wings that would be much more capable than the 2 carriers used in 1982 Very capable submarines. Very capable escorts, although fewer in number. Acceptable levels of amphibious vessels and support vessels.
- No long range strike aircraft capable of reaching the islands, but the Vulcan was in reality a minor footnote in 1982.
- Heavy tanker aircraft, much reduced., Capable but limited in numbers.
- Unavailability of the airfield at Ascension could be significant. Unsure if emergency use would be possible.

Argentina:
- essentially no fast jets. The Air Force and Navy are a shell of what they were in 1982 numbers and capability wise. The Mirages, A-4s, Super Entendards and Daggers proved to be a significant and brave force in 1982, but have been retired without replacement. Perhaps token numbers of fast jets left in operation.
- Small number of transports. A few MPA of questionable serviceability.
- Adequate rotary.
- Surface and submarine assets severely degraded. A few capable light destroyer type ships. No carrier, no heavy amphib. Submarine lost a few years ago, doubtful the other sub remains operational.


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Old 14th Apr 2022, 13:53
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Not so much the oil and gas wealth as that will be a fight between American and Chinese oil companies . The fishing rights in a protein starving world may be more valuable long term than the oil . Especially if the protein provided by pigs and poultry are perpetually plagued by new plagues .
It would be interesting to know how many fishing companies were involved with the recent IMF discussions in Argentina .
Is anyone monitoring the fishing grounds for plagues or new fish viruses ? All those fishing vessels from all over the world dumping their shit untreated into the ocean might just create a new zoonotic plague . Perhaps they should limit the types of fishing vessels to ones with proper sewage treatment equipment on board . Although there are so many cities that pump raw sewage into the ocean a few ships might not seem that bad .
oh no I am talking shit again
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Old 14th Apr 2022, 23:04
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If you were old enough to remember the early 1980s, you would recall the fervent nationalism on both sides. The mass demonstrations in Argentina celebrating the invasion and the welcome home when the task force returned to the UK victorious.

Most people in the UK didn't even know about the Falklands until they were invaded whereas Argentinians were well aware of their country's claim on the islands. The British Government didn't really want them and had been trying to nudge the inhabitants into an arrangement with Argentina however this wasn't very appealing to the islanders as they would be joining a bankrupt military dictatorship with an appalling human rights record.

Invading the islands was the one thing the Junta could do to restore its popularity amid an economic crisis and recovering them was the only thing the British government could do to save face. Had the Argentines waited a bit longer, they would probably have succeeded:

9 month delay and the cutbacks in the Royal Navy would have meant no task force.
6 month delay and they would have received all the weapons they had on order, a decent number of Exocet missiles and the task force would have been devastated.
6 weeks delay and winter would have started making the British recovery operation impossible for months, meaning the islands could be fortified.

Rear Admiral Sandy Woodward stated that if the Argentines could have held out for another two weeks, they would probably have won. It was a close run thing.
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Old 15th Apr 2022, 04:04
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Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
Rear Admiral Sandy Woodward stated that if the Argentines could have held out for another two weeks, they would probably have won. It was a close run thing.
Have you got a citation for that please?
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Old 15th Apr 2022, 07:06
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He was being interviewed in a documentary on how the war could have turned out differently had the Argentinians not made so many mistakes. He also stated that "If all the bombs had exploded in all the ships they hit, we would have been defeated." Towards the end, the task force was barely functional after fighting a war so far from home for such a long time, but the Argentines were in an even worse state having retreated into Port Stanley in the face of the British advance where they were surrounded and cut off.

From the position they were in at the start, the Argentinians should have been able to win, however the balance was swung by them making so many errors and the British performing so well. An event such as one of the aircraft carriers being sunk would have tipped the balance the other way.
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Old 15th Apr 2022, 08:52
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This includes the U.K. protectorates.

https://www.goconqr.com/mapamental/2...british-empire
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Old 15th Apr 2022, 08:58
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OldLurker View Post
Interesting map - where did it come from?

It's the wrong colour, of course - in the old maps, the 'British Empire' was coloured pink, not red.

And I'm not sure of its accuracy in some places. For example, when did the UK rule Madagascar?
lt probably refers to the 1810 period?

https://www.britannica.com/place/Madagascar/History
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Old 15th Apr 2022, 13:36
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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A friend of mine who was passing through (traditional Civil Service approach) the MoD at the time of the invasion ended up having to stay in the MoD for the war. Whilst he would not be specific, he did have a number of trips to Hereford. Most of Hereford's usual types and Ruperts were off down near the battles, but apparently some were held back and were engaged in persuading suppliers of weapons and etc to delay their delivery!
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Old 15th Apr 2022, 15:50
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The main concern was the Exocet missile after the sinking of HMS Sheffield, had the Argentinians managed to get hold of a number of them and launched them against the task force the result could have been devastating. There were four ships that couldn't be lost, had either of the two carriers or either of the two troop landing ships been sunk, the whole operation would have to be cancelled. The British Secret Service was attempting to buy up every Exocet available on the black market and plans were in place to intercept any cargo aircraft carrying these missiles to Argentina.

Israel was also involved in supplying the Junta with war equipment due to Menachem Begin's hatred of the British. Parts for the Airforce Skyhawks were sent, including fuel tanks which increased their range and forced the Royal Navy to stand off further away from the islands.

Peru even offered its airforce to fly air strikes on the fleet.
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Old 16th Apr 2022, 10:47
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Begin seemed to hate a lot of people. He was responsible for the terrorist murder of Count Bernadotte of Sweden, the UN negotiator Israel. It has been said that is why there has never been an official visit to Israel by the Swedish crown.
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Old 17th Apr 2022, 14:00
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They should have gone to Buenos Aires and exterminated the vermin Generals and their Junta , and freed the Argentinians from their oppressors.
Next Time ?
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Old 17th Apr 2022, 16:06
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Originally Posted by fitliker View Post
They should have gone to Buenos Aires and exterminated the vermin Generals and their Junta , and freed the Argentinians from their oppressors.
Next Time ?
Freeing people from their oppressors does not always work out the way you think though, does it?
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