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P&O Ferries

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P&O Ferries

Old 18th Mar 2022, 18:20
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
And, true to form, after the "gosh, what a shock ! " releases yesterday, the UK Gov't resorts to the now default standard...lies to the public.

T F, that was an interesting reply, thanks for the French social history lesson, not entirely relevant, but that's JB. I am acutely aware of how some unions, and the leaders, abused their positions in the 70's..which resulted in the despotic regime headed by the unlamented deceased as we know.

You may be interested to learn I've been subjected tot the negative aspects of unions, twice. Difficult to say which was the most appalling ...possibly the last one where union application forms were frequently left on my desk...ironically, next to my copy of the Guardian, where a "manager", a dead ringer for "Red Robbo" in both physique and ideology used to send emails saying ignore the organisation, do what the union tells you, he was a "manager " remember...who was obsessed with trade boundaries..." how can you train about engines when you was airframes in the RAF " and, worse still, from his perspective,basic, very basic, avionics and electrics.." well, it's like this bonehead (not well received, strangely) in the real world, which you've never worked in, as a Line Engineer you are expected to do all these disciplines as part of your job "....I wasn't invited to the top table at the Christmas do, thankfully, as they were an embarrassment in public.

Here's the Gov't's lies exposed.
Government knew of P&O Ferries sackings the day before, No 10 admits | P&O Ferries | The Guardian
Thanks KnC - very surprised by your history there, I would have believed that technical areas were too "technical" to be involved in that. My professional life was principally in supplying to the car industry, therefore strikes at BL, Ford, PSA were the bane of my life: clearly here it was the actions of unions that were on the front pages, but I believe that management stupidity - whilst not absent - was considerably less.

As for the French history, there was one element I didn't include, although I have to say I find it rather touching. These young boys who were dispatched to the cities were called "hirondelles " (swallows ) because like these migratory birds they would disappear and then return a few months later.

As for the Guardian article, I truly don't regard that as lies . Seriously who expects complicated situation to be transmitted up through I don't know how many levels of "management" and get a reasonable answer within 24 hours ? That's just clickbait/crowdpleasing. Having said that, this is the most despicably dishonest government I can recall, so even if they had had time, then lies would have been most likely.

A problem that strikes me , is that , imo, there are few serious politicians in the major European ( GB, F, D ) governments. Macron is a major disappointment playing to the crowd, although Le Drian - current Foreign minister , ex defence minister is solid, GB you know and then Germany. Scholtz had a decades-long reputation for being a ditherer, but within a couple of weeks has amazingly doubled the defence budget without any (public) consultation with the MdB and has now said they will buy F35 ( maintaining nuclear deterrent ). The Green ministers - Habeck and Baerbock - have adopted positions that are really astonishing ( although Baerbock was already very anti-Russian even pre-Ukraine invasion ). Obviously Germany has swerved out of its normal "let's integrate the Russians " routine: the ones I have mentioned are showing surprising qualities, but other party members are fence-sitting.

Last edited by Tartiflette Fan; 18th Mar 2022 at 18:47.
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Old 18th Mar 2022, 18:37
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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I would have said the money they lost last year was sod all to do with crew costs but with Covid restrictions, the loss is just an excuse to maximise future profits.
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Old 18th Mar 2022, 18:50
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Nutty, you then need then to explain why they would have voluntarily dumped this cart-load of shit on themselves for just a few million which are unimportant in the longer term.
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Old 18th Mar 2022, 20:42
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
And, true to form, after the "gosh, what a shock ! " releases yesterday, the UK Gov't resorts to the now default standard...lies to the public.

T F, that was an interesting reply, thanks for the French social history lesson, not entirely relevant, but that's JB. I am acutely aware of how some unions, and the leaders, abused their positions in the 70's..which resulted in the despotic regime headed by the unlamented deceased as we know.

You may be interested to learn I've been subjected tot the negative aspects of unions, twice. Difficult to say which was the most appalling ...possibly the last one where union application forms were frequently left on my desk...ironically, next to my copy of the Guardian, where a "manager", a dead ringer for "Red Robbo" in both physique and ideology used to send emails saying ignore the organisation, do what the union tells you, he was a "manager " remember...who was obsessed with trade boundaries..." how can you train about engines when you was airframes in the RAF " and, worse still, from his perspective,basic, very basic, avionics and electrics.." well, it's like this bonehead (not well received, strangely) in the real world, which you've never worked in, as a Line Engineer you are expected to do all these disciplines as part of your job "....I wasn't invited to the top table at the Christmas do, thankfully, as they were an embarrassment in public.

Here's the Gov't's lies exposed.
Government knew of P&O Ferries sackings the day before, No 10 admits | P&O Ferries | The Guardian
The need to know.....


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Old 19th Mar 2022, 09:15
  #65 (permalink)  
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It appears the ferries have been emptying the bilges and what should emerge ?....yep, the hand wringing faux angst of the UK Gov't.

The UK and the ferry owners enjoy what you might call a very cosy relationship plus, despite what they say, this Gov't has long been committed to eroding the unions so in many ways, they must have reasoned any response would be purely cosmetic....quite why they didn't seemingly be concerned as to the reaction away from the Gov't is uncertain albeit they've severely misjudged the public reaction.

But it's this bit that's really interesting...apparently, as reported, it's only UK crews who are affected, not, the French. (any French contributors care to verify the reports please) ..now this couldn't possibly be related as to the potential for French industrial action bringing the operation to a grinding halt could it ?

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ories-dp-world
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Old 19th Mar 2022, 09:33
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fitliker View Post
I cannot see how the owners of these ferries can maintain the confidence of the Minister of Transport that they will be operating according to the original approvals in their operators licence. Hardly being operated to the benefit of the British customers and British business interests .
An excellent opportunity for the present government to show their support for fair and equitable labours practices and support for transportation continuity before the next election .
Having worked on a ferry system that was abusive and offered very little job security , I laugh now when I see that they cannot get licensed engineering positions filled . Cancellations of sailings blamed on COVID , when they were simply lacking trained crew .
There are no licences for ferry operations. The high seas are and always have been "open access". Anybody can operate a ferry service from a UK port to a foreign port as long as their ships pass Maritime and Coastguard Agency inspections.
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Old 19th Mar 2022, 09:35
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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I htink thye also need approval from the Port Authorities tho - and any construction or traffic may fall foul of Planning and the EA
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Old 19th Mar 2022, 10:08
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting chap on the BBC news this morning who was one of the replacements, but changed his mind.

For all the “hand wringing” it’s British people replacing them, not “forrin”.

Forget P&O, why are there 800 agency staff prepared to shaft people?

I’d also walk back off the boat, like the guy on the BBC.

800 people didn’t.

I don’t think P&O are the bad guys here.
Cheap Agency workers with a screw you mentality, and labour agencies with the same.


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Old 19th Mar 2022, 10:17
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Agency staff are usually paid more 'take home pay' than employees. At the cost of short term benefit. They can be hired and fired with no consequences.
Clearly, P&O are the bad guys.
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Old 19th Mar 2022, 10:31
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Tartiflette Fan

Nutty, you then need then to explain why they would have voluntarily dumped this cart-load of shit on themselves for just a few million which are unimportant in the longer term.
Wall Street Syndrome - i.e. attaching vast importance to next quarter's numbers, rather than taking a long term view. Very prevalent in US managed companies, and the one thing where Hilary was right when she criticised it.
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Old 19th Mar 2022, 10:34
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by kghjfg View Post
Interesting chap on the BBC news this morning who was one of the replacements, but changed his mind.

For all the “hand wringing” it’s British people replacing them, not “forrin”.

Forget P&O, why are there 800 agency staff prepared to shaft people?

I’d also walk back off the boat, like the guy on the BBC.

800 people didn’t.

I don’t think P&O are the bad guys here.
Cheap Agency workers with a screw you mentality, and labour agencies with the same.
When I worked in logistics agency drivers were for the most part agency because they lacked the competence to hold down a permanent position!
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Old 19th Mar 2022, 10:56
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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I just dug out my 1982 ticket on Hoverspeed. £62 for the crossing. I crossed on Wednesday £68.
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Old 19th Mar 2022, 11:25
  #73 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
When I worked in logistics agency drivers were for the most part agency because they lacked the competence to hold down a permanent position!
That's a rathe sweeping generalisation. People who work for agencies do so for a variety of reasons, and circumstances. Some prefer the contractor lifestyle, others, like myself, need to work after redundancy. Agencies are, however, staffed by liars, commission driven parasites and otherwise unemployable human garbage. You may be surprised by the range of occupations I encountered doing agancy work due to the change in their circumstances

Back to the Gov't and the calibre of Boris's carefully selected acolytes. Now you might think, with all the condemnation taking place, when you write a letter, you would know to whom it was addressed was actually still in post....alas, enter not one, but two, Ministers, both of whom have previously demonstrated their intrinsic incompetence...and happily continue to do so.

https://www.theguardian.com/business...e-if-sackings-
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Old 19th Mar 2022, 12:25
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
It
But it's this bit that's really interesting...apparently, as reported, it's only UK crews who are affected, not, the French. (any French contributors care to verify the reports please) ..now this couldn't possibly be related as to the potential for French industrial action bringing the operation to a grinding halt could it ?

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ories-dp-world
There was nothing visible yesterday,, and today just a small article in the business pages of Le Figaro. Is it a fact that there are any French crew ? Given the far more stringent French employment regulations generally, I'm sure this action would not be possible, although these special regulaltions for sea-farers may nullify that. Regulations apart, however, there would be tyre and pallet-burning happening if French matelots were being sacked, and no smoke-signals have been sighted.
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Old 19th Mar 2022, 12:27
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by radeng View Post
Tartiflette Fan



Wall Street Syndrome - i.e. attaching vast importance to next quarter's numbers, rather than taking a long term view. Very prevalent in US managed companies, and the one thing where Hilary was right when she criticised it.
Sorry, this is completely unconvincing. Nobody dumps shit on themselves for one quarter's figures.

Last edited by Tartiflette Fan; 20th Mar 2022 at 00:19.
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Old 19th Mar 2022, 13:00
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post


But it's this bit that's really interesting...apparently, as reported, it's only UK crews who are affected, not, the French. (any French contributors care to verify the reports please) ..now this couldn't possibly be related as to the potential for French industrial action bringing the operation to a grinding halt could it ?

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ories-dp-world

French Regional newspaper

Yesterday’s edition, Opening para:


P&O Ferries va licencier 800 marins sur ses 3 000 salariés. Selon la direction locale basée à Calais, aucun salarié français ne sera touché par cette mesure”

Rough translation which others will correct I’m sure…: “P&O ferries is laying off 800 sailors out of it’s 3000 employees. According to local management at the Calais base no French employees will be effected by this measure.”


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Old 19th Mar 2022, 13:11
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That is because French and most European employment laws have more protections for the employees than do the equivalent UK laws.
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Old 19th Mar 2022, 16:33
  #78 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Bergerie1 View Post
That is because French and most European employment laws have more protections for the employees than do the equivalent UK laws.
First, thanks to wiggy and TF for the French perspective, which, when allied to the above, says a lot as to why it's only UK crews who have been targeted.

This article offers a legal overview, however, it's worth noting some good news. Whilst the Gov't can, and doubtless will, "review " the bits of UK employment law they feel they can attempt to get away with changing, when he was "getting Brexit done ! ", Boris seems to have forgotten the second / third paragraph remains applicable.

The last paragraph supports the above post.

Given Boris ostensibly launched a 2 year campaign in the vain hope of remaining in power yesterday, this universally condemned action puts him firmly onto the proverbial horns really....act decisively in favour of the sacked staff..or, bluster and compromise hoping all will be forgotten by the next GE.

Are the P&O Ferries mass sackings a result of Brexit? | P&O Ferries | The Guardian
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Old 19th Mar 2022, 16:42
  #79 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Bergerie1 View Post
That is because French and most European employment laws have more protections for the employees than do the equivalent UK laws.
That's not what is said in the article linked in Kn'C's post. "Andrea London, a partner in law firm Winckworth Sherwood’s employment team, said Brexit was a “red herring”. She said the EU collective redundancies directive was implemented in the UK by a primary act of parliament which “gold-plated” (went beyond) the EU legislation,"

I suggest you read it carefully.
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Old 19th Mar 2022, 17:16
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by B Fraser View Post
That's not what is said in the article linked in Kn'C's post. "Andrea London, a partner in law firm Winckworth Sherwood’s employment team, said Brexit was a “red herring”. She said the EU collective redundancies directive was implemented in the UK by a primary act of parliament which “gold-plated” (went beyond) the EU legislation,"

I suggest you read it carefully.

Brexit or not, EU or not from what I’ve seen companies operating in France have historically been very very hard pressed to get rid of permanent employees….

Doing so often involves a lengthy judicial process, and rightly or wrongly it’s certainly not something that generally can be done at a whim, maybe with the assistance of a pet accountant or accountancy firm.

Times are however changing but ATM I’d say it’s not out of the question that national legislation made it easier for P&O to shed jobs on the English side of the Channel than on the French side.
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