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Modern Flawed Designs

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Modern Flawed Designs

Old 16th Jun 2022, 07:41
  #721 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: UK
Posts: 39
I agree KnC. What happened to the.." if in doubt both feet out" from years past ?
I miss the met symbols that are.... not always.... shown on the tv weather charts. The most important curves are normally provided by Carol with that great smile that lifts any black clouds around.
reds r20d
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Old 16th Jun 2022, 10:06
  #722 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: on the ground
Posts: 387
Originally Posted by FullOppositeRudder View Post
Surely there's no good reason why the cruise control could not be disengaged by the central handbrake (as it is usually located) being given a yank upwards.
Cruise control is cancelled by any of several inputs; brake application, handbrake application, auto selector in neutral, clutch pedal depressed, the cancel switch if it is within reach, failure to maintain close to the set speed. A bit like a broken throttle return spring, the true hazard is that people haven't considered what they might do to promptly deal with the failure.
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Old 16th Jun 2022, 11:33
  #723 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: near an airplane
Posts: 2,218
I think the true hazard is actually: there is no (or there doesn't appear to be) any part in current driving licence training to deal with sophisticated automation. It is a large part of learning to fly an airliner but I can buy a car that is quite a bit more complicated and don't have to undertake any extra training at all.
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Old 16th Jun 2022, 12:16
  #724 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 713
Apart from the options listed above to disengage the cruise, of which the off switch on the steering whell seems the easiest since the passenger will have to steer anyway, my car will follow the vehicle in front when cruise is engaged . If the vehicle in front stops, my car stops and the cruise disengages. Also, if the car detects an obstacle it thinks it is going to hit, it allerts the driver and if the driver does not react, the car applies the brakes - this operates with or without cruise engaged. I suspect many modern cars are similar.
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Old 16th Jun 2022, 17:49
  #725 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: California
Posts: 356
Originally Posted by wowzz View Post
I would say that the vast majority of cars currently being built all over the world, especially manuals, have a central handbrake. To state that all new cars have electric brakes is just totally wrong.
And every car I have hired in the US in the last twenty years has had a central handbrake as well.
I don't think that's true. This from Motoring, Dec. 17, 2021:
The stats on how many new models are now sold with electronic parking brakes have been revealed as part of online sales platform CarGurus’ annual Manual Handbrake Report, which this year is in its third instalment.It reviewed a total of 642 new models offered by 38 mainstream brands in the UK. It found that 550 cars now have an electronic alternative to a handbrake as standard. It means just 92 new cars have a pull-lever handbrake. For some popular models, the switch has been made recently.

Cars including the BMW 4 Series, Seat Leon and Vauxhall Corsa – which is set to become Britain’s most-bought new car of 2021 – have all dropped traditional handbrakes over the past year, the report confirms. Some manufacturers, meanwhile, have already pulled the brake on the manual handbrake across their entire model line-up.

Household names including Volvo, Alfa Romeo, Jaguar, Porsche and Mercedes-Benz now no longer sell a single passenger car in the UK with a handbrake, with every car in the brochure having an electronic version. Other big brands are on the verge of joining them, with less than a handful of models offered with a handbrake.

For instance, only one per cent of new Audis has the option of a manual handbrake – the Audi A1 Sportback – while just six per cent of Peugeot’s range offers the traditional brake. But while push-button alternatives might be more convenient and take up less cabin space, they tend to be more expensive to fix if they go wrong.
One brand that won’t be forced to implement such recalls is Abarth. The performance arm of Fiat is the only mass-market manufacturer to offer manual handbrakes on all models across its range, though that only consists of souped-up versions of the previous-generation 500 superminis.

Even Dacia, which is famed for its budget-friendly motors, has started
to fit electronic parking brakes to its latest models, including the new Sandero supermini.

CarGurus says that the decline from 24 per cent of new cars with handbrakes last year to just 17 per cent this year has been driven by two factors. The first is the vehicle market’s transition to electric and hybrid models, which, in most cases, use electronic parking brakes.

The second is the departure of Mitsubishi from the UK market this year, taking with it a number of models with manual handbrakes that had featured in the 2020 data.

Chris Knapman, editor at CarGurus UK, said: “Last year we forecasted the existence of the manual handbrake on new cars only has a few years left, and our latest data causes us no reason to believe otherwise, with there being an even greater decline in 2021 than there was between 2020 and 2019.

“The rapid shift towards electric vehicles will only speed up the demise of the manual handbrake, leaving many traditionalists who are looking for the tactile feel and mechanical simplicity of a manual handbrake scratching their heads.

“Nonetheless, for drivers looking to enjoy this feature, there are still certain models of new cars available with manual handbrakes across a range of classes.”
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Old 17th Jun 2022, 08:22
  #726 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 145
The whole cruise-control/autopilot thing makes for an interesting thought experiment with regard to Asimov's 3 Laws of Robotics, with which many readers will be familiar. I don't think anyone actually writes algorithms discretely addressing the Laws but, rather like the man-in-the-street's attitude to the 10 Commandments of Abrahamic religion, they are more a series of aspirations that influence our actions.

Compliance with only the First Law for a ground vehicle would require the autopilot to do nothing except remain at rest, at Point A, and monitor the environment for perceived hazards, which it would promptly move the vehicle to avoid.

Bring in the Second Law, and it now tries to execute the human-occupants instruction to proceed to Point B without breaking the First Law which, to accommodate other road-users, requires compliance with local road-traffic regulations. Perceived collision threats are countered by acceleration (positive or negative) into open areas of tarmac, and it governs its overall velocity (subject to those traffic regulations) by its own ability to continue to have an open area (or anticipated open area) in which to do so. So a collision can only occur in the event of hardware failure (eg a wheel falls off) or an unanticipated interruption to the availability of open tarmac into which to accelerate (eg an oncoming-vehicle crosses into the user-vehicle's lane).

So, it would seem reasonable that in the event that collision is inevitable, due to its inability to comply with the First and Second Laws, it would invoke the Third Law;
2 seconds before impact; power down.
1 second before impact; autopilot ejects from the vehicle.
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Old 17th Jun 2022, 12:20
  #727 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 713
Originally Posted by MarcK View Post
Is this just a UK thing? I haven't had a car with a central handbrake since 1962. All new cars have electric brakes, actuated by putting the shifter into Park.
How about foot operated parking brakes? My car has one such. Put the car inPark which stops it rollin, but there is an optional pedal to press that applies the parking brake. I do not believe it is electric, it certainly feels mechanical. Once applied, the pedal obstructs the foot rest for the left foot so it is hard to forget. It is released by pressing it again.
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Old 17th Jun 2022, 13:17
  #728 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Darkest Lincs
Posts: 495
Originally Posted by MarcK View Post
I don't think that's true. This from Motoring, Dec. 17, 2021:
Interesting article, thank you.
Strangely enough, I took delivery of my brand new Ford Puma today. Traditional handbrake, with no electronic option.
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Old 17th Jun 2022, 19:21
  #729 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 277
My father-in-law had a LHD Mercedes W123 300D with a manual gearbox, the parking brake was a pedal to the left of the clutch and was released by pulling a knob on the dash. Stopping on a hill to turn across the oncoming traffic was a nightmare, you needed to dance like Nureyev.

For anybody who knows St. Mawgan, my personal horror was climbing the hill from Mawgan Porth to turn right towards St. Eval.
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Old 18th Jun 2022, 02:44
  #730 (permalink)  
See and avoid
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 595
I admit, if I had a fully automated car that could do almost everything, my biggest fear would be falling asleep if I had a long commute.

After all, there is a reason that people use buses, trains, planes, or chauffeurs.
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Old 18th Jun 2022, 07:15
  #731 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: X marks the spot
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by DuncanDoenitz View Post
So, it would seem reasonable that in the event that collision is inevitable, due to its inability to comply with the First and Second Laws, it would invoke the Third Law;
2 seconds before impact; power down.
1 second before impact; autopilot ejects from the vehicle.
We did what we could, but it wasn't enough... sort of...
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Old 18th Jun 2022, 08:00
  #732 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 1,192
Isn't technology wonderful !

Dog turns on stove and starts house fire - BBC News

Elsewhere, just visited local Tesco's....virtually all the frozen display cabinets empty...seemingly, they all gave up due to one day of slightly warm temps.

Back to how the human brain has evolved an auto-disconnect function when seated in a car
Krystal n chips is online now  
Old 18th Jun 2022, 10:11
  #733 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Down Under somewhere not all that far from YPAD
Age: 77
Posts: 513
An interesting discussion. Some have missed the point of my original speculation -- namely what action is available to a front seat passenger when the driver becomes unresponsive and the cruise control is <on>? Despite what has been asserted, pulling the handbrake lever <on> will NOT disengage the cruise control on either of our vehicles (Mitsubishi Lancer (12 years old) and Mitsubishi Pajero (6 YO)). Both were tested in recent days, and cruise control remained activated and was prepared to fight any slowing action the handbrake might attempt. It's quite possible that while some safety features in some vehicles might eventually intervene in the event of driver incapacitation, things might well have progressed well beyond that which simple earlier intervention by a passenger - if available - might have resulted in a (perhaps) less catastrophic outcome than the examples I quoted earlier.
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Old 18th Jun 2022, 15:27
  #734 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 145
Originally Posted by FullOppositeRudder View Post
Despite what has been asserted, pulling the handbrake lever <on> will NOT disengage the cruise control on either of our vehicles (Mitsubishi Lancer (12 years old) and Mitsubishi Pajero (6 YO)).
Safety Rating: Mitsubishi = Zero.
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Old 18th Jun 2022, 21:32
  #735 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Edinburgh
Age: 83
Posts: 55
Driver incapacitation
My usual advice is
1 steer (a head on collision can occur in a second or so, and would be serious)
2 knock the gear lever/selector into neutral
3 ease on the handbrake (handbrake turn not desired).
Not yet proven in practice,though.
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Old 27th Jul 2022, 21:47
  #736 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2022
Location: Nearby
Posts: 2
Modern toilet cisterns with dribbling drop-valves are a massive design step backwards. Bring back the time honoured siphon-valves —which absolutely, by design, cannot leak.
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