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London Stabbing Quandary

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London Stabbing Quandary

Old 25th Jan 2022, 10:15
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London Stabbing Quandary

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60088244

A driver who ran over and killed a man whilst he was attacking and stabbing a woman (fatally) has been arrested on charges of attempted murder.

Itís still early days and all the facts are unclear, so I donít know what the outcome will be, but what a position to find yourself in. It appears that he was trying to stop the attacker and prevent the womanís death, sadly to no avail.

It makes you wonder what you would do if you witnessed something similar. Would you get involved if you though that you would end up in trouble?
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 10:20
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I would imagine they are just going through the procedures until they establish exactly what happened. Good on him, though he will have to live with it for the rest of his life, I would hate to think what he will tell his insurance and whether they will pay out.

Also was arrested on suspision of murder, not attempted as the assailant is no more..

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...le-west-london
That infers he only struck the man.

An eyewitness to the fatal knife attack said he saw a man repeatedly stab a woman in the chest as he shouted “take it, take it”.

The attack only ended when the man was run over, according tobystanders. Raad Jiyad, a structural engineer who has lived in Chippenham Road for 10 years, said he was about to take his child to school when he heard a woman screaming for help.

“I heard a woman’s voice saying: ‘Help, help, please help me.’ I came outside and I saw a black man with a knife and a white woman on the pavement,” he said.

Jiyad said he saw the man stabbing the woman: “I saw the knife very clear. I saw him stab her four to five times in the chest.”

He added: “I think he knew her. As he stabbed her he said: ‘Take it, take it’. He was going for this lady. She was about 24 or 25 and he was about the same age.”

Jiyad added: “No one pulled him off because he scared everybody. He said: ‘Nobody come to me.’ I tried to help but the guy scared me.”

The attack only came to an end when the man was run over and became trapped under the wheels of a car.

Jiyad said: “I could see him under the car. He was saying: ‘Please help,’ but nobody went. He was trapped.”

He said he tried to help the woman after the attacker had been hit. “I took her hand. She was only just breathing. Her jacket was caught under the car. Many people tried to ask her name. But she didn’t say anything. It was horrible.”

The Metropolitan police confirmed that the woman was stabbed to death in Chippenham Road, and the man was killed after being hit by a car. Ambulance and fire crews also attended but both victims were pronounced dead.
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 10:41
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In law there is a difference between taking action to interrupt the event and taking action after the event.

Mjb
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 13:53
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Without sounding to macabre - If she was still breathing I would suggest that it was during the event that he was hit.
Also if he had a knife the driver was protecting the public.
From the initial report it seems here the driver was a hero.
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 14:05
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if a Policeman rolled into what was obviously a highly dynamic scene and did the same thing I suspect he/she wouldn't be arrested. I also think the motorist will say he only wanted to stun the knifeman but since we're not taught this manoeuvre in the Highway Code then he misjudged it in the heat of the moment. Hopefully he didn't hit the woman as well.
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 14:07
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I can comment with some authority on this.....

1/ he needs a good solicitor and Barrister.

IF he saw what was happening and was trying to stop the attack.......

2/ his defence will be that he acted in defence of another person

If that is the case and the CPS have any sense (and they don't) they will realise that it is not in the public interest to pursue this matter.

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Old 25th Jan 2022, 15:12
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We have this every time there’s a self defence case or similar. The police are obliged to arrest someone they suspect may have carried out a crime. With a man dead they are particularly obliged not to jump to conclusions (ok, that might be idealistic..) and by arresting them are covering themselves in case it proves that the death was indeed unlawful. Arrested likely means cautioned, not thrown in the back of a Black Maria in cuffs, but it’s not unreasonable they might want to conduct a thorough interview rather than just taking the guy’s word for it!
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 15:39
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In America yes, but the same applies in the UK:-
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 15:42
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Police latest

https://news.met.police.uk/news/upda...da-vale-441265

Detectives from the Met’s Specialist Crime Command investigating the death of a man and woman in Maida Vale have released their names.

The deceased woman has been named as Yasmin Chkaifi, who was aged 43 and from Maida Vale.

The man has been named as Leon McCaskre, who was aged 41 and also from Maida Vale.

Police were called at 09:01hrs on Monday, 24 January to reports of a stabbing on Chippenham Road, W9.

Officers, the London Ambulance Service and London Fire Brigade attended the scene.

Yasmin Chkaifi was found at the scene with stab injuries.

Also at the location was Leon McCaskre, who had been struck by a car.

Both were pronounced dead at the scene.

Next of kin have been informed and Family Liaison Officers are helping to keep them updated and supported.

Post-mortem examinations will take place on Tuesday, 25 and Thursday, 27 January.

Enquiries are under way to establish the full circumstances, but we can confirm the two deceased were known to each other and had previously been in a relationship.

A 26-year-old man, the driver of the car, remained at the scene and was arrested on suspicion of murder.

He was fully cooperative with the investigation and has been bailed to return to a police station on a date in late February while the evidence is evaluated.

Detective Chief Inspector Neil Rawlinson, of the Met’s Specialist Crime Command, said: “We are gaining a clearer idea of what happened at the scene thanks to information supplied by the public and by reviewing CCTV. Firstly, it is apparent that members of the public bravely tried to intervene to stop the attack and their actions were very courageous.

“We are speaking to the families of those concerned and doing all we can to support them at this terrible time. We can now confirm that both the deceased were previously known to each other and there are no outstanding suspects.

"A man, who was the driver of a car, has been arrested and bailed for a very serious offence and we must carry out a full investigation, looking at all the circumstances. I would ask the media not to speculate on the causes of the deaths while we are awaiting the outcome of two post-mortems, it is important that we deal with facts.

“Lastly, we appreciate the support we have received from the public. A number of people have already come forward, but we are still asking for anyone who has not to make contact with us. Any information could be vital in helping us fully understand why this dreadful incident happened.”
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 16:02
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Originally Posted by Curious Pax View Post
We have this every time thereís a self defence case or similar. The police are obliged to arrest someone they suspect may have carried out a crime. With a man dead they are particularly obliged not to jump to conclusions (ok, that might be idealistic..) and by arresting them are covering themselves in case it proves that the death was indeed unlawful. Arrested likely means cautioned, not thrown in the back of a Black Maria in cuffs, but itís not unreasonable they might want to conduct a thorough interview rather than just taking the guyís word for it!
Here in the US, sometimes they are let go, even when admitting to killing someone, with the dead body of the jogger laying right in front of the police.

Why are these threads coming up so often on the PPRuNe? I suggest straightdope. Good discussions there.
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 20:27
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The man was arrested on suspicion or murder, but then subsequently released to appear at a later date pending evaluation of the evidence. If the police thought he committed violent murder on the open street with his vehicle, they would not have bailed him. But as he was the Hombre Ultimo with two dead, an initial arrest pending further investigation would seem a reasonable course of action.

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Old 25th Jan 2022, 20:29
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Originally Posted by Rozy1 View Post
Here in the US, sometimes they are let go, even when admitting to killing someone, with the dead body of the jogger laying right in front of the police.
Being white and friends with the local police can be a big help, especially when it was only a black guy you killed anyway.
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Old 26th Jan 2022, 02:55
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Being white and friends with the local police can be a big help, especially when it was only a black guy you killed anyway
Not always, justice does prevail at times, thank God.
Three white Georgia men who were found guilty in November of murdering Ahmaud Arbery, a 25-year-old unarmed Black man, after suspecting him of committing a series of break-ins in their Georgia neighborhood, were sentenced to life in prison on Friday.

Two of the men — Travis McMichael, 35, and his father, Gregory McMichael, 65, received life sentences without the possibility of parole. The life sentence for the third man, their neighbor William Bryan, 52, allows for the possibility of parole after 30 years.

Gregory McMichael is a former Glynn County police officer and a former investigator with the local district attorney’s office.

Shortly after the shooting, the prosecutor for the Brunswick Judicial Circuit, Jackie Johnson, recused herself because Gregory McMichael had worked in her office.
https://www.nytimes.com/article/ahma...g-georgia.html

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Old 26th Jan 2022, 06:31
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Not always, justice does prevail at times, thank God.https://www.nytimes.com/article/ahma...g-georgia.html
It took literally two months and a video to be publicly published (With associated outcry) For those clowns to get arrested though...
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Old 26th Jan 2022, 14:10
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Being arrested is not a neutral event. It will apart from anything else make it difficult to travel abroad and create issues if working with vulnerable people. We also saw the harm that came to the couple arrested for the claimed Gatwick drone, and nobody was harmed in that alleged crime.

I see no reason for this arrest if the police knew his identity. The car wasnt going anywhere and was within a crime scene. If sensible he would not have said anything. The police could simply investigate and withhold an arrest until and unless there were adequate grounds to need to do so which I hope is unlikely in this case.

It may be easier for the police to arrest but the public should not be harmed nor deprived of their liberty because it is easier to do so. If the police claim it is legally required then the law should be changed
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Old 26th Jan 2022, 14:49
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So long as he said NO or NO COMMENT or even .... on the advice of my solicitor, I have nothing to say at this point to the realy naughty question Plod likes to ask, particularly of the young....

"do you think you were reckless"

Anything else is likely to see you charged and up before the Judge in double quick time for whatever you did, irrespective of the reasons why you did it i.e. defence of another person.



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Old 26th Jan 2022, 23:46
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Not talking about this particular case, but isn't it the case that if you are using force to stop the commission of a crime, you are required to use the minimum amount of force necessary to do so safely, and also, the force must be proportional to to the crime being committed?
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Old 27th Jan 2022, 02:56
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If you kill someone who is in the process of trying to kill someone I'd say the force was proportional. I doubt very much the car drivers intent was to kill the offender, but merely to stop him in his murderous knife wielding actions.
It took literally two months and a video to be publicly published (With associated outcry) For those clowns to get arrested though..
The American law and legal system I have absolutely no faith in, a country I have absolutely no wish to reside.
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Old 27th Jan 2022, 16:41
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A motorist who says he was trying to prevent a woman from being stabbed to death when he drove his car into her attacker has urged the police to reverse a decision to arrest him on suspicion of murder.

Yasmine Chkaifi, 43, was repeatedly and fatally stabbed by her ex-husband Leon McCaskre, 41, on a pavement in Londonís Maida Vale on Monday morning. The motorist drove his blue Renault Clio into McCaskre, killing him.



The 26-year-old driver, who identified himself only as Abraham, issued a statement through his solicitor saying he had no intention of killing McCaskre and was only trying to stop him attacking Chkaifi. He urged the police to treat him as witness rather than a suspect.

ďI do not see why I, as the person who tried to assist in the defence of other human beings, remain arrested and on bail under suspicion of murder,Ē he said. ďIíve asked my solicitor to contact the Metropolitan police to request that they consider de-arresting me and begin treating me as a witness to a tragic event rather than as a criminal.

ďMy instant thought was to protect the woman who had been stabbed and the public who were also being threatened. The vehicles ahead of me moved off which gave me the opportunity to intervene. I drove my vehicle towards the attacker in order to get him away from the woman he was attacking. I did not intend to harm the attacker, only intended to protect those being attacked.Ē

He added: ďI have since learned that both the young lady and the attacker have died. I am deeply sorry that the man I tried to stop from attacking other people has died. It was never my intention to harm him
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ng-to-save-her
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Old 28th Jan 2022, 02:18
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The Metropolitan Police has referred itself to the police watchdog after it emerged an arrest warrant for McCaskre, 41, had been issued three weeks ago.

He was wanted for allegedly breaching a stalking restraint order and not turning up for court.
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