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The Colston Four

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The Colston Four

Old 6th Jan 2022, 17:24
  #61 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Ancient Observer View Post

I now expect the Colston 4 to go to Tiananmen Sq to protest about the Chinese treatment of their Muslims.
You can’t do anything about the past, but you can with the future. However, they won’t be going to China and carrying out their actions there…
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Old 6th Jan 2022, 17:46
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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However, that doesn't stop you from moving to China if you want to live under that kind of rule.
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Old 6th Jan 2022, 17:59
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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The 'in' term for a lot of modern day commentators is 'deconstruction' - presumably trying to make sense of much of the gobbledegook spouted on forums such as this - (self included)
Trying to do so for this partcular thread would seem to indicate a sanguine acceptance of slave trafficking as a noble profession, suitable to be lauded by publicly displayed monuments. Any overt action against such highly principled behaviour, should merit instant forced passage (presumably chained in the holds of badly maintained sailing vessels) to PRC . I may have missed the more deeply argued merits of the media-fuelled outrage, but the unshakeable faith in the exemplary , incorruptible nature of BRITISH flag-waving justice (think Guildford Four and Birmingham 6 amongst others) has obviously struck a deep chord in the sensitive natures of the British sculpture adoring public. ...
or have I missed something ?
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Old 6th Jan 2022, 19:34
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Saintsman View Post
Of course, none of the countries in question never enslaved anyone themselves and were always peacefully respecting everyone’s rights? I think not.

Who are the hypocrites?

https://qz.com/africa/1333946/global...-in-the-world/

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Old 6th Jan 2022, 19:36
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Originally Posted by Ancient Observer View Post
Who started the whole idea of slavery?

Over 1,00 years ago - and much more - The Egyptians had it, Iraq had it, The Indus valley had it. Greeks and Romans continued it. As, of course, did the Muslims of N Africa, and the Barbary Pirates. More recently, the Chinese are alleged to be enslaving their Muslim population, as are Myanmar.

Most of them had "colour" of some sort, in their definitions of who became a slave.

I now expect the Colston 4 to go to Tiananmen Sq to protest about the Chinese treatment of their Muslims. I will join them!
well it was Africans who captured other Africans who they otherwise would have killed and then sold them, ie profited off them to the west and around the world. So there’s that. And there is this today…

https://qz.com/africa/1333946/global...-in-the-world/


and of course given the violent spread of Islam, which resulted in the crusades when the Christians pushed back, we obviously need to tear down all mosques.

In fact Muhammad owned slaves himself. Oh dear. Whatever should be done. Surely these wokies need to be consistent.

Muslim slavery continued for centuries

The legality of slavery in Islam, together with the example of the Prophet Muhammad, who himself bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves, may explain why slavery persisted until the 19th century in many places (and later still in some countries). The impetus for the abolition of slavery came largely from colonial powers, although some Muslim thinkers argued strongly for abolition.”
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Old 6th Jan 2022, 19:53
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Fabulously detailed exposition by our friend the Secret Barrister about the multiple routes that the jury might have taken (well 10 of them, at least) in arriving at their "not guilty" verdict.

Given that we're not allowed to ask them about the detail of their deliberations and, if we did, they wouldn't be allowed to tell us, it's probably about the closest we're likely to get to understanding how they may have reached their decision.

Far too long to reproduce in full, but here's part of it:

Allied to these criticisms [that the outcome is an affront to the Rule of Law] has been a suggestion from certain commentators that it was somehow inappropriate for the jury to apply "values" in this case. This criticism is the rather regrettable sort of fallacy you risk when you seek opinions on criminal law from writers with no experience of the criminal courts, but it is hard to convey in sober terms how utterly batshit this proposition is. Value judgements – concepts of how much force is reasonable, and whether a person has an honest belief in something, and whether a statue of a slave-trader is indecent or offensive, and whether a criminal conviction is proportionate to the alleged wrong – these are quintessential jury issues. They arise in all sorts of criminal cases, along with other judgements that juries are asked to make – was this type of conduct dishonest? was this person’s belief in consent reasonable? – and feed into the very reason we have retained juries in criminal courts. We ask jurors explicitly to pool their experience and their values and apply them to the questions that the law asks them to decide. Again, not an "assault on the rule of law" – just the criminal law in action.

What does, however, represent a genuine threat to the rule of law is when elected politicians, having not heard the evidence nor bothered to understand the relevant legal principles, attempt to undermine the verdicts of independent juries when the outcome of a criminal case does not meet with their approval. That is a very dark road indeed.
Do the verdicts in the trial of the Colston 4 signal something wrong with our jury system? 10 things you should know.
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Old 6th Jan 2022, 20:00
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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EpslionValez

It really doesnt matter what he was like ,the law is the law. At the time it was common practice. Remember this country was the first to stop the trade and was the first to do something about it. Does one take down the hospitals he funded ? does one take down the ancient buildings in Greece, Rome all built with salves ?
We are on a slippery slope now, I am really pleased now that i served this country to keep its people safe and etc etc, what a joke this country is becoming and perhaps the laughing stock. I wish these people would go and focus their efforts where it is really needed, bet they wouldnt go do the same in China, i will answer that they wouldnt be brave enough.
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Old 6th Jan 2022, 20:07
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Originally Posted by Hughes500 View Post
EpslionValez

It really doesnt matter what he was like ,the law is the law. At the time it was common practice. Remember this country was the first to stop the trade and was the first to do something about it. Does one take down the hospitals he funded ? does one take down the ancient buildings in Greece, Rome all built with salves ?
We are on a slippery slope now, I am really pleased now that i served this country to keep its people safe and etc etc, what a joke this country is becoming and perhaps the laughing stock. I wish these people would go and focus their efforts where it is really needed, bet they wouldnt go do the same in China, i will answer that they wouldnt be brave enough.

africa is the modern slave capital today. seems they have learnt nothing since they captured and sold their own centuries ago.

I wonder what Epsilons view is on Muhammad. Not only did he and his followers butcher countless people and force Islam on them…he also was a slave trader and owner.

Muslim slavery continued for centuries

The legality of slavery in Islam, together with the example of the Prophet Muhammad, who himself bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves, may explain why slavery persisted until the 19th century in many places (and later still in some countries). The impetus for the abolition of slavery came largely from colonial powers, although some Muslim thinkers argued strongly for abolition.

if I was to burn down a mosque as a protest against him it appears Epsilon would have no issue with that.

as it appears would the obvious charlatan the secret barrister.
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Old 6th Jan 2022, 20:31
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It really doesnt matter what he was like ,the law is the law.
Really ? It's often said that all these sorts of threads eventually mention one notorious character... so we'll leave him out of it , but, which laws ? PRC laws, ?, Myanmar present day laws ?, Sharia Law ? Saudi Arabian laws etc., etc. The law stipulated specific penalties for various social and other gatherings and imposed them, at speed, for some ... for others, not so. Those others posed a possible threat to the health, and, possibly, the lives, of fellow citizens ... were we favoured with your unbending assessment then ?
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Old 6th Jan 2022, 20:37
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Originally Posted by Cornish Jack View Post
It really doesnt matter what he was like ,the law is the law.
Really ? It's often said that all these sorts of threads eventually mention one notorious character... so we'll leave him out of it , but, which laws ? PRC laws, ?, Myanmar present day laws ?, Sharia Law ? Saudi Arabian laws etc., etc. The law stipulated specific penalties for various social and other gatherings and imposed them, at speed, for some ... for others, not so. Those others posed a possible threat to the health, and, possibly, the lives, of fellow citizens ... were we favoured with your unbending assessment then ?
why are you leaving certain people out of an argument. Because to include him would completely destroy your non argument. Yes we see you clearly hate the British or the establishment. We get it.

I’m off to burn down a mosque .. no not really for those gullible
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Old 6th Jan 2022, 20:44
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Unfortunately both your arguments miss the point completely. You should look up the strawman fallacy, along with the slippery slope logical fallacy.

You need to appreciate what a statue like that means to the citizens of this country today. Times change. Unfortunately the institution that makes the rules was too slow to adapt and there was no legal means to right a wrong. Thankfully the court recognised that.
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Old 6th Jan 2022, 20:48
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EpsilonVaz i am a citizen of this country and i object to it being unlawfully taken down. As to slavery / racism et al I suggest you know and seen very little of it in this country.
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Old 6th Jan 2022, 21:33
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Is anyone really that surprised - you had better buckle up if this verdict shocks or appalls you, it’s going to get a LOT worse in years to come, and you know it.
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Old 6th Jan 2022, 21:37
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Am I reading the verdict correctly? So If something offends you it is your right to remove it WTF...

Anyway if that's the "law" now do you think it is possible to remove public officials and governments?
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Old 7th Jan 2022, 06:41
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If someone had been injured or killed when that statue was unceremoniously toppled, would death or injury in such circumstances also be 'justified?'
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Old 7th Jan 2022, 07:46
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Originally Posted by Hughes500 View Post
EpsilonVaz i am a citizen of this country and i object to it being unlawfully taken down. As to slavery / racism et al I suggest you know and seen very little of it in this country.
It seems the legal system of this country has ruled the opposite.
As to my experience of racism (I'm ethnically from the Indian subcontinent), to be honest I think it's completely irrelevant in this case. It's not about modern day racism.

There is a lot of whataboutery in this thread. Not all laws and precedents are perfect and cover every conceivable scenario. It was not the task of this court to rule on every single historical issue in every country.
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Old 7th Jan 2022, 08:06
  #77 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
A judge can direct a jury to find a defendant not guilty under certain circumstances. It's hard to see a jury defying that instruction.
In that example, I agree, but they still cannot be compelled to do so.
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Old 7th Jan 2022, 08:26
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The judge is in charge of points of law, but the jury is in charge of justice. They are not always the same thing.

This jury obviously considered it to be their statue-tory right to deliver a not-guilty verdict (sorry ).

Banksy has the right idea - resurrect the statue to commemorate the moment it was pulled down. That should keep everyone happy: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/118194...-blm-protests/
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Old 7th Jan 2022, 09:00
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Originally Posted by Derfred View Post
The judge is in charge of points of law, but the jury is in charge of justice. They are not always the same thing.

This jury obviously considered it to be their statue-tory right to deliver a not-guilty verdict (sorry ).

Banksy has the right idea - resurrect the statue to commemorate the moment it was pulled down. That should keep everyone happy: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/118194...-blm-protests/
I had a similar thought as I’ve always believed we should learn from history, not rewrite it. Leave the statue in place but with a plaque explaining how attitudes have changed and how the Slavery Abolition Act 1833 ultimately brought about the end of the practice.

Incidentally, we shouldn’t forget that well into the nineteenth century, British born white people were effectively owned and abused by mill owners, industrialists etc too. These ‘employees’ had no more rights than slaves, their children were put to work as soon as they could walk and if family members became ill and no further use, they were consigned to workhouses to die there. Many, many fortunes were made on the backs of this white underclass too.

https://heritagecalling.com/2020/11/...y-mill-worker/


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Old 7th Jan 2022, 09:26
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Originally Posted by Cornish Jack View Post
The 'in' term for a lot of modern day commentators is 'deconstruction' - presumably trying to make sense of much of the gobbledegook spouted on forums such as this - (self included)
Trying to do so for this partcular thread would seem to indicate a sanguine acceptance of slave trafficking as a noble profession, suitable to be lauded by publicly displayed monuments. Any overt action against such highly principled behaviour, should merit instant forced passage (presumably chained in the holds of badly maintained sailing vessels) to PRC . I may have missed the more deeply argued merits of the media-fuelled outrage, but the unshakeable faith in the exemplary , incorruptible nature of BRITISH flag-waving justice (think Guildford Four and Birmingham 6 amongst others) has obviously struck a deep chord in the sensitive natures of the British sculpture adoring public. ...
or have I missed something ?
Yes you have.
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