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Afghanistan Withdrawal

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Afghanistan Withdrawal

Old 22nd Aug 2021, 06:12
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps, instead of despair, at the Taliban victory we should be glad that the war ended with little bloodshed.
despite what we think, they have the support of many of the people of Afghanistan who were fed up of the violence from both sides.
More importantly, the Americans may reflect on all their failed invasions of Vietnam, Cambodia , Somalia, Syria Iraq and Afghanistan and stop killing citizens who resent their country being brought ‘ freedom ‘.
it would be nice to think that the citizens of the USA understand that they are not always the good guys and act accordingly, however, with a budget of $715 billion and a huge military industry to support I suspect that it won’t be long before they are back ‘ kickin ass and taking names ‘ as it’s the only thing that really unites the States 🙄
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Old 22nd Aug 2021, 08:45
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by waffler View Post
despite what we think, they have the support of many of the people of Afghanistan who were fed up of the violence from both sides.
Those many will not include 50% of the population. The women who are denied education, kept at home except with a man's supervision, and "married" off as soon as they reach puberty.

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Old 22nd Aug 2021, 20:54
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by waffler View Post
Perhaps, instead of despair, at the Taliban victory we should be glad that the war ended with little bloodshed.
despite what we think, they have the support of many of the people of Afghanistan who were fed up of the violence from both sides.
Sure. Many Afghans will be positively relieved to see the non-violent, liberty-loving Taliban back.

Many people were indeed pleased to see the Taliban take power last time around, seeing them as restorers of order; at first. But they created an oppressive and tyrannous regime. Hard to believe that they will be fondly remembered or welcomed by many who remember their last reign.
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Old 22nd Aug 2021, 21:26
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cornish Jack View Post
It doesn't really seem to make any difference to some of our contributors, just how awful the situation being discussed - there's always an opportunity to make stupid comments in order to flog pet peeves. ! !
OK CJ, here's another.

I think there is a tendency, particularly with older generations, to see the Afghanistan problem through the prism of the Northwest Frontier with Westland Wapitis bombing rebellious tribesmen firing back with muzzle-loading jezails. Consequently, there is a temptation to view the Taliban as hillbillies with cellphones. This appreciation patently is wrong.

However, whilst the military sophistication has changed, cultural aspects have not, so that we are stuck with a ragbag of unreconstructed fundamentalists determined to be defenders of the "purity" of their Islamic revolution. Those new people in Kabul, all looking suspiciously like refugees from a Christmas pantomime and claiming to represent the Taliban high command, will have virtually no control of all those wild men set loose in the country and for whom they were once the spiritual commanders. The original purpose of the Afghan adventure was achieved in a couple of years and reasonably can be considered successful. However, as always seems to be the case, the West (the Americans) in their attempts at subsequent nation-building, have completely failed to understand the Afghanis' natural resistance to being moulded in the image of some "democratic" ideal totally alien to their history and culture. Western democracies need to understand that the political models that have evolved in their own nations may not be appropriate for others.

I predict that Afghanistan will become a chaotic, dangerous failed state which the Taliban elite will seek to control with assassinations and totalitarian repression. Into this political vacuum will step China and Russia to compound the headache which this place will become and remain for decades. I should not appear too gerontophobic since Biden is several years younger than me, but it is painfully apparent that the man, (who never was on the right side of any argument and only in the post because he's not Trump), is incipiently senile and should be stood down before he causes any more trouble. I imagine Afghanistan is a lost cause but the people of Taiwan must now be extremely nervous and with very good reason.

Last edited by Gipsy Queen; 22nd Aug 2021 at 21:54.
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Old 22nd Aug 2021, 23:00
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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Gpsy Queen said:


I predict that Afghanistan will become a chaotic, dangerous failed state which the Taliban elite will seek to control with assassinations and totalitarian repression. Into this political vacuum will step China and Russia to compound the headache which this place will become and remain for decades. I should not appear too gerontophobic since Biden is several years younger than me, but it is painfully apparent that the man, (who never was on the right side of any argument and only in the post because he's not Trump), is incipiently senile and should be stood down before he causes any more trouble. I imagine Afghanistan is a lost cause but the people of Taiwan must now be extremely nervous and with very good reason.


I think GQ is totally correct



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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 04:54
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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A most apt front page from yesterday's New York Post:



Although to be fair, his predecessor didn't exactly earn a gold star WRT Afghanistan.
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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 05:31
  #167 (permalink)  
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One thing I have noticed is that the woke brigade are strangely quiet. When Trump was around, they were howling in protest at everything he said. Now that their poster boy is in charge and people are dying, not a sound. Trump was an idiot but Biden is a serious threat to world peace. The Kremlin must be licking their lips and eyeing up their former satellite states. GQ has hit the nail on the head.

Another obvious question is where is the Islamic world ? The UN are a waste of space however there are plenty of Gulf and far east states who practice the religion of peace that could have formed a coalition and moved in to maintain stability. The west is no longer the world's policeman however it appears that no-one else will lift a finger.
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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 06:35
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
I imagine Afghanistan is a lost cause but the people of Taiwan must now be extremely nervous and with very good reason.
Given that a Chinese attack on Taiwan would be the closest we've yet come to WW3, I think we should all be nervous.
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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 06:55
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by John Marsh View Post
A most apt front page from yesterday's New York Post:



Although to be fair, his predecessor didn't exactly earn a gold star WRT Afghanistan.
The same New York Post which has always been a harsh critic of any non-Republican president you mean? Hardly a balanced media outlet.
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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 07:15
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by B Fraser View Post
One thing I have noticed is that the woke brigade are strangely quiet. When Trump was around, they were howling in protest at everything he said. Now that their poster boy is in charge and people are dying, not a sound. Trump was an idiot but Biden is a serious threat to world peace. The Kremlin must be licking their lips and eyeing up their former satellite states. GQ has hit the nail on the head.
Biden is simply, and stupidly, simply carrying through Trump's agreement with the Taliban. He could, and should have rowed back on it (taken a "U" turn) but since Americans by and large aren't that interested in anything other than getting their boys home, and frankly who can blame them, he was probably between a rock and a hard place. This all makes Trump's latest utterings at the his weekend rally more than a tad hypocritical.

Same goes for Blair's interview. It was he, hanging on to the coat tails of one George W Bush that foolishly began the whole ill fated adventure.

The west, and the US and UK in particular, need to finally get a grip on the fact that for much of the world western democratic principles are foreign concepts, and people are happy with what they know, that is autocratic leaders, be they political or religious that can keep a lid on tribal factions, and without whom the countries in which they live all fall apart into tribal or factional fighting down ethnic or religious groups. This evidenced in Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Egypt and most recently Afghanistan. Even In Russia where Putin is essentially an autocrat he still enjoys popular support, and away from the cities, I suggest that Lukashenko in Belarus enjoys similar support for similar reasons away from the cities he probably didn't have to "fix" the presidential election to the extent he did - winning by 55% to 45% would have kept him in power, and the furore about a fixed election may never have happened.

There has to be a more intelligent way of keep terrorism at bay than wading into countries, changing regimes and creating chaos as a bi-product.
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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 07:26
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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Simply, błt not stupidly, not in an electoral sense. You can be sure that the howls of derision we hear now would be amplified tenfold if Biden ignored the Trump " Bring our bits home" dog whistle. Joe has his eyes on the mid term elections. Blame Trump.
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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 07:43
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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A week or so ago I listened so some guy who was in the US government back in the early 2000s at the beginning of the Afghanistan adventure who made it quite clear that the prime objective of the invasion was regime change to get rid of Al Quaida and Bin Laden in particular. Any interest in the Afghan people was peripheral. I feel sure the aims of the UK government were somewhat more towards nation building.

In foreign adventures the USA above all isn't being altruistic, it's America first, front and centre. That is what the US people probably believe too, given their extremely insular media, and was clear as far back as WW2, when it was really only the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor that brought them into the "fighting war". Had the Japanese not goaded the US in such a direct way, it is more than likely we wouldn't have had US troops on the ground in Europe until it was far too late, and the outcome could have been very different.
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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 08:33
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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From Bob Shepherd. Beware of Trojan Horses.
https://bobshepherdauthor.com/2021/0...m-afghanistan/
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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 10:34
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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Any news on how China and Russia responded to Johnson's request at the virtual G7 that they take get more involved in Afghanistan? Stony silence?
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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 10:46
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by B Fraser View Post
One thing I have noticed is that the woke brigade are strangely quiet. When Trump was around, they were howling in protest at everything he said. Now that their poster boy is in charge and people are dying, not a sound.
Err, haven't you been watching the news? All manner of such talking heads lining up to criticise what has happened.

Somewhat controversial view: I honestly can't see what all the fuss is about. So far no westerners have died in the melee around the airport, nor look like doing so, and, as for the Afghans, I agree the situation is awful for them, but what to do, offer them all asylum? The fact is the general public in the US, UK, Canada etc etc are deeply weary of our involvement in the country and cannot wait for us to leave. We been and tried and proven beyond any reasonable doubt that the country is beyond help. Its down to their citizens now.

Also, it doesn't really make a blind bit of difference if the chaos ensued now or in a couple of months as the intelligence community had reportedly predicted. The only difference would have been that most western news crews would have left and it wouldn't have featured so heavily in our media, just some hand-wringing and that would have been it.
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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 10:54
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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What will be the Taliban reaction to the IMF refusal to release any more money? It hasn't quite happened yet, but when it does, I can see a fair amount of fuss. The other question is how long before there's a major conflict between ISIS and the Taliban, both of whom appear to consider the others the source of all evil.

That has the possibility of making Northen Ireland in the 1970s look like a friendly holiday camp....
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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 13:52
  #177 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dead_pan View Post
Err, haven't you been watching the news?
Err yes, and keeping an eye on the usual social media channels that were full to the brim of anti-Trump whining. Don't get me wrong, he has the intellect of a rocking horse and much of it was deserved. An example closer to home for the disparity is that within these hallowed pages, there were 81 threads started referring to Trump, There are 2 threads with Biden junior in the title and the number of threads specifically about Biden senior............. zero.

Originally Posted by dead_pan View Post
Somewhat controversial view: I honestly can't see what all the fuss is about. So far no westerners have died in the melee around the airport,
That's all right then.
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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 15:06
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by B Fraser View Post
the usual social media channels
So, not MSM then? I'd have a gander if I were you.

the number of threads specifically about Biden senior............. zero.
Why not start one then? I dare you.

That's all right then.
Truth be told that's all most people really care about, esp the American right.
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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 15:54
  #179 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dead_pan View Post
Why not start one then? I dare you.
No, quite simply because it's not my monkey and not my circus. I'm sure the same goes for 99% of the wokerati who were foaming at the mouth over Trump but are strangely silent on Biden. I guess they are too busy making sure we all use the correct pronouns.
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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 16:09
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by B Fraser View Post
Err yes, and keeping an eye on the usual social media channels that were full to the brim of anti-Trump whining. Don't get me wrong, he has the intellect of a rocking horse and much of it was deserved. An example closer to home for the disparity is that within these hallowed pages, there were 81 threads started referring to Trump, There are 2 threads with Biden junior in the title and the number of threads specifically about Biden senior............. zero.
So if nobody cared enough to either bitch about or champion him, who were the woke people on Jet Blast who held him up to be a poster boy? Your argument doesn‘t seem very logical.
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