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Old 15th Mar 2021, 12:49
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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It only takes the final straw to break the camels back.

I believe this is what happended with BLM and is what has happened as a consequence of the murder of Sarah Everard. The fact that a serving police officer has been arrested and charged with her murder, someone many people would expect to be beyond reproach in their conduct, has only added to the anger and frustration felt.

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Old 15th Mar 2021, 13:03
  #82 (permalink)  
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https://order-order.com/2021/03/15/y...ve-gone-ahead/

PUBLIC THINK CLAPHAM VIGIL SHOULD NOT HAVE GONE AHEAD
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 13:59
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Given your expertise, how would you define what a vigil is only the vigil that took place bears a strong resemblance to every dictionary definition of the word.

And why to you feel women expressing their long standing / well documented fears and experiences of assault / harassment doesn't constitute a social injustice....you've mentioned a "political protest ".....thus far, no reports I 've read or viewed have mentioned anything about a direct attack on the Gov't as being the basis for this vigil.

As for the Met and empathy, spoke to one of my BiL's who as i've said before was career Met for his view. His opinion was a chain of command failing at more than one point. He was for some time Central London based and riot trained. As he said, they knew all about "rent a mob " and their appearances at any convenient demo, so they went for them..fair enough, but, as he said, some of his colleagues were more than happy to class all demonstrators as "rent a mob " which is where the culture of the Met comes into play.

It is very clear that the narrative behind this protest is changing, and that it was not wholly about celebrating the life of a murder victim at all, but has shifted sideways to a host of other topics, in much the same way as the BLM movement did after the death of George Floyd. There is a clear trend to try and legitimise law breaking by seeking to associate activity with something legitimate, in this case abusing the memory of a murder victim in order to make points against the police, the criminal justice system, the CPS, the government, you name it - all have been dragged into now.

The reality in this case is that the Met Police, love them or loathe them, had to uphold the law. They didn't have the freedom to allow any mass gathering to go unchallenged, as when the law was changed at the end of last year it was tightened to remove all forms of discretion by the police with regard to public gatherings. The police are now obliged, by law, to try and disperse them, and fine the people involved.

There's a valid argument that the government should not have passed such a draconian bit of legislation, but there cannot be an argument as to whether or not the police needed to act with the law as it currently stands. Whether the police acted in a way that was proportionate is a matter to be decided after hearing from witnesses - I doubt anyone on this forum witnessed what happened and is in any position to judge whether what was done was reasonable or not.
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 14:03
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
https://order-order.com/2021/03/15/y...ve-gone-ahead/

PUBLIC THINK CLAPHAM VIGIL SHOULD NOT HAVE GONE AHEAD
If they had carried out and published a poll ahead of the vigil, do you think it would have stopped people turning up at Clapham Common on Saturday night?

I know plod is pretty stupid at the best of times, but a lot of people turning up on Clapham Common of Saturday night, was entirely foreseeable without the benefit of a crystal ball or 20/20 hindsight. They should have worked with the organisers to control the event, not against them which led to the confrontations we saw on our TV's

This was a total failure of leadership and I note with dismay, that the politicians seem to be rallying around the Commissioner whilst covering their arses by commissioning a report.



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Old 15th Mar 2021, 14:15
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WB627 View Post
This was a total failure of leadership and I note with dismay, that the politicians seem to be rallying around the Commissioner whilst covering their arses by commissioning a report.
Not so sure about that.
Both Boris and Priti have used the dreaded "full confidence"
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 14:22
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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The Police were stuffed whatever they did. Once the SWP and Co's PR machine started penning the stories for the journos, the police had had it.
It was as evening wore on, a great place for the anti-vaxxer nutters and the SWP.

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Old 15th Mar 2021, 14:39
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
It is very clear that the narrative behind this protest is changing, and that it was not wholly about celebrating the life of a murder victim at all, but has shifted sideways to a host of other topics, in much the same way as the BLM movement did after the death of George Floyd. There is a clear trend to try and legitimise law breaking by seeking to associate activity with something legitimate, in this case abusing the memory of a murder victim in order to make points against the police, the criminal justice system, the CPS, the government, you name it - all have been dragged into now.

The reality in this case is that the Met Police, love them or loathe them, had to uphold the law. They didn't have the freedom to allow any mass gathering to go unchallenged, as when the law was changed at the end of last year it was tightened to remove all forms of discretion by the police with regard to public gatherings. The police are now obliged, by law, to try and disperse them, and fine the people involved.

There's a valid argument that the government should not have passed such a draconian bit of legislation, but there cannot be an argument as to whether or not the police needed to act with the law as it currently stands. Whether the police acted in a way that was proportionate is a matter to be decided after hearing from witnesses - I doubt anyone on this forum witnessed what happened and is in any position to judge whether what was done was reasonable or not.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the family of Sarah Everard are dismayed the way her memory has been hijacked like this. I certainly would be if it was my daughter/sister.

I have every sympathy and sadness at injustice and abuse to any individual, but I do not like the way these causes are be used more and more by anarchists to subvert society. I would defend everyone’s democratic right to protest but there’s a hardcore group exploiting these opportunities for their own agenda. The whole BLM went the same way. Many of these wrongs can be healed by frank and open discussion - not rioting and looting. Stealing TVs and Rolexes never solved world issues. I’m convinced that the genuine BLM protesters were inadvertently manipulated, exploited and inflamed by agitators who didn’t want an end to black suppression - just an vehicle to carry their own agenda.
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 15:23
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BWSBoy6 View Post
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the family of Sarah Everard are dismayed the way her memory has been hijacked like this. I certainly would be if it was my daughter/sister.

I have every sympathy and sadness at injustice and abuse to any individual, but I do not like the way these causes are be used more and more by anarchists to subvert society. I would defend everyone’s democratic right to protest but there’s a hardcore group exploiting these opportunities for their own agenda. The whole BLM went the same way. Many of these wrongs can be healed by frank and open discussion - not rioting and looting. Stealing TVs and Rolexes never solved world issues. I’m convinced that the genuine BLM protesters were inadvertently manipulated, exploited and inflamed by agitators who didn’t want an end to black suppression - just an vehicle to carry their own agenda.
+1 to that
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 15:27
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ancient Observer View Post
The Police were stuffed whatever they did. Once the SWP and Co's PR machine started penning the stories for the journos, the police had had it.
It was as evening wore on, a great place for the anti-vaxxer nutters and the SWP.
The Police were only stuffed once it got out of control. The MPS should never have let it get to that point. Total failure of leadership.

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Old 15th Mar 2021, 19:27
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WB627 View Post
The Police were only stuffed once it got out of control. The MPS should never have let it get to that point. Total failure of leadership.
Nonsense - the family said no, the organisers cancelled the event, yet the permanently looking for a cause to get behind still turned up.
What could they have done?
Stop everyone getting on Clapham Common? Its a bloody big place.
Arrest all of them?
Stop and Search?
Issue Fix Penalty Notices to them all?
How many Police do you think there were there? - Probably more journalists.

Have a look at the alternative videos of the "peaceful crowd" if you want to see what the Police were really up against.

Damned if they do and Damned if they don't.

In future with these sorts of protests just let them go on and stand well back. Then kettle them in for a couple of days.
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 19:36
  #91 (permalink)  
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Demonstration in Parliament square and past Downing St, sit down outside New Scotland Yard - all the usual anti-government posters and raised fists etc, Sky reporter saying the mood was very anti-police.

In short, or the usual suspects and rent-a-crowd mobs.
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 19:40
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Bring back the water canon, fill it with dye, give them a damn good soaking, then drive around at your leisure picking up fluorescent green, lurid pink, shocking yellow individuals off the streets and charge them.
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 19:42
  #93 (permalink)  
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ORAC/Nutty, I agree...

(Wondered what was going on, two of the news Squirrels flew over here on way back to Redhill earlier...)
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 21:08
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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If it was infiltrated by rent a mob etc and the police would have known this, then all the more reason not to give them what they were looking for, which they did.

Rule no 1.... Only fight the battles you know you can win

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Old 15th Mar 2021, 21:14
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WB627 View Post
If it was infiltrated by rent a mob etc and the police would have known this, then all the more reason not to give them what they were looking for, which they did.

Rule no 1.... Only fight the battles you know you can win
It was explained on a piece on R4 earlier that the police had zero choice. The change in the law at the end of the year took away any discretion the police had to decide whether or not to take action against any breach of the Covid-19 regulations. If groups gather in contravention of the law then the police have no choice but to act.

The government tightened the law at the end of last year specifically to remove any discretion from the police, because there were criticisms of the degree of variability with which the police were dealing with previous breaches of the coronavirus regulations.

Last edited by VP959; 15th Mar 2021 at 21:28. Reason: typo
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 21:26
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Lessons will be learnt

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Old 16th Mar 2021, 07:26
  #97 (permalink)  
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Given JB now has two threads, both referring to the same issues, which one is the most apt is irrelevant.

First, the " blame infiltrators " is a classical distraction technique used by authorities to try and contain issues they would much prefer didn't come to wider public prominence. Whilst it's now emerging other groups are associating with the original vigil event, their association is relevant.

Quite how, and why, the Met officers reacted as they did still remains unclear, however, a certain bill was mentioned and now, it seems, the charmless Ms Patel had some conversations with the Met Commissioner prior to the event. Given the UK has a totalitarian Gov't, and she's perfect for delivering the policies, along with a benign AG, and this is pure hypothesis, it's possibly the reason Rangers fans were allowed to congregate, given they were in Scotland, whereas this vigil was in London and hence an opportunity to showcase the draconian legislation now in force.

For those who so oppose the right to protest, stopping short, just, of demanding martial law, how many of you have actually attended demonstrations to support your principles ?.....because I have and, if matters continue to deteriorate in the way the precedent suggests they will with regard to civil liberties, looks like I will be again.

I would also like to inconveniently point out, that, opposition to policies is not achieved by writing a "strong letter to the Times " they can only be opposed by public feeling expressed in the rightful form of demonstration protest. You may also wish to reflect, that, many of the societal changes you now enjoy and take forgranted, same as the benefits you formerly enjoyed at work as these are going to be removed as well, were achieved due to people protesting in the first place.

Also worth noting..you can be sentenced to 5 years for rape, but, 10 for damaging a statue.....got to get the priorities right after all.

Protest is a fundamental right, as long as it doesn't annoy Priti Patel | UK news | The Guardian

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 16th Mar 2021 at 08:01.
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 09:30
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Also worth noting..you can be sentenced to 5 years for rape, but, 10 for damaging a statue.....got to get the priorities right after all.
'Twas ever thus. It is something I have mentioned previously; crimes against property are treated far more seriously than crimes against the person.
It has long dismayed me that police officers can be called to an incident of violence against the person and nothing comes of it.
Take domestic violence for example: There are plenty of examples of this where police are called to a house and there is a person, frequently a wife or partner, obviously injured, and the allegation is made that the perpetrator is a husband or partner. Yet, when the perpetrator has had a few days in which to intimidate the victim into keeping silent or withdrawing the complaint, nothing is done. The whole thing goes away as if it had never happened.
This is not the fault of the police, it is the system under which the law operates. The law basically says that the perpetrator must convict himself by admitting to the offence, otherwise the offence never happened.
Compare that to speeding in your car. You have to either confess to the offence or name the person driving the car at the time of the offence. Either way, someone will be punished, regardless of confessions or otherwise.

With regard to the Clapham incident, it will be interesting to see how much, if any, of the footage captured by police body worn cameras will be released when any report of events from the Met's view point is published. According to the Met, all officers who come into contact with the public wear them. (That'll be all of them, then). I still don't see that the police had any choice in the matter. Obviously, there will have been the odd obnoxious toe rag who thinks donning a uniform is a licence to crack heads. On the other hand, I would imagine there would be a lot of plod who were stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place. They have been directed to go to that location and to disperse the crowd on the grounds they were breaking a law. They have no choice in the matter if they still want to be in a job tomorrow.
I wonder what would have been the outcome if those ladies had chosen to walk, crocodile fashion, around the park, with their candles etc but maintaining a decent distance between each other. I think the authorities would have found it harder to take any serious action, yet their point (albeit a valid one) would have been made quite effectively.

The right to protest is and must remain, sacrosanct. How else do you tell 600 miscreants in Westminster that they must change course? Wait patiently 5 years for a chance to change their course? The cardinal rule though must be "don't give the likes of Patel the ammunition". Unfortunately, this is difficult to do as most protests will attract the rabble rousers who will carefully and sneakily steer the crowd into doing stupid things, giving the authorities the opportunity to say "See! Told you so! This is why we need to bring in a law". As far as I am aware, these rabble rousers seem never to be brought to book. Odd that, isn't it? It would almost make you think they were working for the authorities as "agents provocateur" which is all the more reason for protestors to keep their wits about them and deny the authorities the ammunition they are looking for.
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 09:44
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
I wonder what would have been the outcome if those ladies had chosen to walk, crocodile fashion, around the park, with their candles etc but maintaining a decent distance between each other. I think the authorities would have found it harder to take any serious action, yet their point (albeit a valid one) would have been made quite effectively.
This ^^^ sums up exactly why the demonstrators chose to do what they did very well. Had they wished to mount a vigil in the memory of the murder victim, they could have done so as described above. A socially distanced slow walk around the park, with lit candles, would have been perfectly lawful, as I understand the covid regulations. It would probably have gained a lot of positive publicity for highlighting the needless death of a young woman, and would not have put the police in a difficult position. The fact that the protesters chose not to do this, but instead chose to do something that they all knew was against the law, and that was intended to be confrontational to both the police and the government, tells us all we need to know about those behind it.

This was not a demonstration of sympathy for a murder victim at all. It was yet another group of demonstrators hijacking something that they thought might further their cause.

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Old 16th Mar 2021, 09:55
  #100 (permalink)  
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I thought that is what happened initially with plenty of people - including the Duchess of Cambridge - happy to pay their respects and leave. It was later that the self-important felt the need to make speeches and encourage more of a protest rally.
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