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The crazy world of Porsche!

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The crazy world of Porsche!

Old 22nd Feb 2021, 17:04
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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I am sure both of you don't need me to tell you to try another dealer, or don't bother with dealers. I avoid them like the plague - they are mostly just salesmen who try to sell you all sorts of stuff. Apparently you can drive hard bargains if you buy at the right time, for example insisting on new brakes and tyres before you sign on the dotted line, but I am not into that sort of game.

But, Per don't let your experience put you off Audi, they are fantastic cars. Just avoid dealers as much as you can. Buy good second hand.

Less Hair, forgive me but I am not going there because it will be like the moving thrust levers versus Airbus type of debate !
Suffice it to say, Mrs Uplinker's car goes extremely quickly but is very civilised in traffic and around town You can shift the auto manually if you want, via the lever in manual or the steering wheel switches. (We don't take it to track days).
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 18:05
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A friend with a 5 year old Porsche 4WD diesel (sorry need to look at badging to identify model) told me this week that a new battery for it is £700 and has to be registered with the ECU. He has an 18 year old Volvo as a beater and does twice the mileage in that ....

'a
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 18:33
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post

But, Per don't let your experience put you off Audi, they are fantastic cars. Just avoid dealers as much as you can. Buy good second hand.
Moi? Or some other Ancient thingie?
Per
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 19:48
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Aerobelly
My new Volvo V90Cross Country needs a new rear light (break light out) but no longer bulb, you have to change the complete assembly. A bulb would be say £20 but a full assembly a lot more (it’s being done under warranty) but long term that is going to be very pricy when out of warranty or several years old. I will let you know how much when it gets changed on my return to UK.
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 22:28
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Normally a high rate of depreciation indicates that a model of car is unreliable and expensive to fix. Porsche reliability is up there with Toyota in recent surveys but bottom of the league in slightly older ones. Either way, if they do go wrong then the bills will be eye watering.

If the depreciation rate was more normal then they would be a good secondhand buy as you would have a significant saving over the new price to cover the possibility of something going wrong. However if you would only lose 20% over 3 years and enjoy brand new with full warranty then that might be a better choice.

It’s the old story of if you can’t afford to run it new then you certainly can’t afford to run it second hand. Many people make the mistake of buying an older exotic car which has come into their price bracket, and then spending more than the purchase price in repairs over the next couple of years. A Boxster could be a reasonable toy if your budget allows for a decent one with a full service history that has been gone over and given the OK by a specialist. Don’t expect Ford running costs though, and know when to stop throwing money into it if the repair quotes start to climb.

A friend of mine spent £6000 pounds on a minor service and a few repairs on his Ferrari. It’s a rich man’s game.
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 23:53
  #26 (permalink)  

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As always some interesting and thoughtful responses.

Tartiflette Fan

In my view you are mistaken in applying 50% as if it were a law of nature (surp[rising given your interest in cars ) affecting all cars similarly.
I was generalising.The last time I looked at a table, in fact several pages of data, on car residual values in the UK after 3 years most high end vehicles lost 50 - 55% of their value. The best, at the time I looked was the Porsche 911 which retained around 70% of its value after 3 years.

Continuing on the Cayman theme Porsche Edinburgh have a 9 month old demonstrator with 5,000 miles up for £56,000. An identical specification brand new car comes out at £56,674. So Porsche are saying that the car has depreciated £674 in 9 months? Warranty left is 2 years instead of the 3 years when bought new. In my view someone would need to be pretty keen to pay that price for that car.

Uplinker

If you know what you are doing, a good second hand car avoids all the above. SMS bearing and condition of the exhaust systems are two things to check on the flat 6's.....

.....They both cost around £10k and needed things like new brake discs - easy to do yourself if you have basic engineering ability......

.....Basic servicing, such as engine oil and filter change, is possible to do yourself, but getting access to, and underneath the flat 6's, can be very involved and quite taxing to your ingenuity and patience - jacking is not easy. You can't just open the "bonnet" and have everything presented in front of you. A car lift (which we don't yet have) would be very useful. For jobs you cannot do yourself, there are independent Porsche garages around, who are expensive but cheaper than main dealers....
SMS bearing issues were mainly limited to the M96 engine and the early M97 engine. 2006 onwards a modified bearing was fitted. I am unaware of the exhaust problems you allude to. My 2005 997 has an engine number which I believe has the later bearing.

Brake changes are something I do carry out but if you want to maintain the value of a Porsche, and bear in mind old 911s eventually appreciate, then a full service history, by an Independent of otherwise, is to my mind essential. Plus I am at a stage in my life I would rather have a car under warranty or else pay for someone else to repair it.

shytorque

I made an appointment to view the car. They kept me waiting twenty minutes beyond the booked time. The young lad salesman was full of how good the car was. I began to look the vehicle over. It had been washed but not recently polished. I immediately saw that the rear tyres had only about 2.5 to 3mm of tread. I then began to look more closely. The front brake discs had a deep wear lip and needed replacing. I opened the bonnet and saw that the scuttle and its vents were full of leaves, small twigs and other debris; one of my pet hates. The engine oil indicated that it hadn’t recently been changed.

I asked if the tyres and brakes were going to be changed before sale. The answer was that the car had already been through their workshop and had a full “green” service sheet and fulfilled all their safety checks. I asked how much they would charge for a pair of tyres and a set of new brakes in six months time or so when the tyres and possibly the discs were worn to the legal limit. The answer was over £1000. I pointed out that they were selling the car for at least that much beyond what it was worth, according to the price guides I had access to and for that money it would have be immaculate condition.

They were not prepared to negotiate downwards to a reasonable price or to replace the worn safety items so eventually I told the salesman I was no longer prepared to waste any more of my time or his, got up and left. I haven’t been back!
What a dreadful dealership! I know many dealers present a car and often offer to rectify problems pointed out by a prospective purchaser but have always felt it was a crappy way of selling cars. Your experienece indicates they are just a dreadful dealership.

Porsche do present their cars properly and all their used cars cars go through a set 111 point check and have a 2 year warranty. A used Porsche from a Porsche dealer is brought up to spec before sale and they appear quite consistent in that area. In my experience of various Porsche dealerships they vary from exceptionally helpful to downright arrogant. Some years ago I went into Porsche Chiswick to look for a Boxster for my partner. We stood around like lemons for 10 minutes or so and were noticed but completely ignored. I spent £40,000 with BMW on a Z4 later that day.

aerobelly

A friend with a 5 year old Porsche 4WD diesel (sorry need to look at badging to identify model) told me this week that a new battery for it is £700 and has to be registered with the ECU. He has an 18 year old Volvo as a beater and does twice the mileage in that ....
Somebody is having his leg up. The dearest battery I can find for a diesel Cayenne (biggest 4WD Porsche make) is about £140 including delivery from Tayna batteries. Many cars now need the battery change being registered with the car ECU which takes a few minutes with the simplest of hand held OBD tools which the majority of independents need out of necessity.

Tell him I will do the job for £500!
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 01:01
  #27 (permalink)  
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But, what if the battery has a chip; the same thieving mentality of printer cartridges?



The Bentley I described a few years ago was bewilderingly new looking. It had depreciated £17.50 per MILE from new. But, the tyres were rather near the limits. So odd. They wanted to polish it for me. £700. But . . . but . . . don't Bentley have six men polish several pounds of paint off before letting it leave the factory?

My lingering memory is of the Aston Martin, a lovely convertible like Prince Charles had was advertised in the Times for £45k I phoned the Colchester dealer and agreed to meet the salesman on that Sunday morning. The showroom was like any other day back in 1990, the young lady at the glass counter confirmed the price and pointed me at the car. It was perfection. Indistinguishable from new.
After very few minutes, "And this is forty-five thousand?"
"Yes . . . er, NO. A hundred and forty-five."

It seems I could have insisted it was sold at the advertised price, but I have a feeling I'd have met a certain resistance to it being driven away. Not that I was aware of that law then. A garage owner mentioned it when I was relating the tale.

Last edited by Loose rivets; 23rd Feb 2021 at 01:12.
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 02:34
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by M.Mouse View Post
I was generalising.The last time I looked at a table, in fact several pages of data, on car residual values in the UK after 3 years most high end vehicles lost 50 - 55% of their value. The best, at the time I looked was the Porsche 911 which retained around 70% of its value after 3 years.
I think you'll find - as a general rule - "Sports Cars" depreciate at a significantly slower rate than most sedans or 'sporty' cars. My S2000 was still worth 80% of MSRP at five years - it slowly dropped down to about 35% at 15 years, but then has started heading back up as a 'collectable' - such that now, 20 years after I bought it, it's worth ~ 50% of it's original price.

Car dealers cover the complete range - from fantastic to horrible. I worked in a car dealer parts department back in my college days - it was a good, reputable dealer, but everyone knew all the games that some dealers played. If you think a dealer is trying to play you - tell them as much, and then tell them that the next hint you get that you're being played, you're going to walk out, and never come back. Chances are, if they are trying to play you, you'll be walking out inside a minute (been there, done that) - they just can't help themselves.
Of course, makes like Porsche and BMW don't often give you many choices of dealership unless you live near a large metropolis.
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 05:46
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Loose rivets View Post
But, what if the battery has a chip; the same thieving mentality of printer cartridges?
Fortunately not. The OEM prices with premium brands are just ridiculous. As an example OEM AC cooler for Mercedes S: 700€. AC cooler from local parts shop: 160€. And they came from the same factory...

And regarding the ECU, modern cars (this started in early 2000's, eg BMW 5-series from 2004-> ) have self adjusting charge, in essence the car is constantly monitoring the condition of the battery and adjusting the maximum charge to the battery. This is why you need to register the battery change: if you dont tell the car that battery has been renewed, it'll keep charging with old battery values and the nee battery will never be fully charged.
The same applies if you go for AGM battery, car needs to know that.

I have an old 986 Boxster for occasional track days and sunny days, and it is very reasonable car cost wise, if you can do a bit of the maintenance your self. The parts are easy to find and if well sourced, they dont cost you an arm and a leg. But heaven forbid going to the dealer...
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 07:15
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Less Hair, forgive me but I am not going there because it will be like the moving thrust levers versus Airbus type of debate !
Wouldn't it be more like buying a Pitt's Special first and then run it in cruise on autopilot all the time?
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 07:34
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Loose rivets View Post
But, what if the battery has a chip; the same thieving mentality of printer cartridges?



The Bentley I described a few years ago was bewilderingly new looking. It had depreciated £17.50 per MILE from new. But, the tyres were rather near the limits. So odd. They wanted to polish it for me. £700. But . . . but . . . don't Bentley have six men polish several pounds of paint off before letting it leave the factory?

My lingering memory is of the Aston Martin, a lovely convertible like Prince Charles had was advertised in the Times for £45k I phoned the Colchester dealer and agreed to meet the salesman on that Sunday morning. The showroom was like any other day back in 1990, the young lady at the glass counter confirmed the price and pointed me at the car. It was perfection. Indistinguishable from new.
After very few minutes, "And this is forty-five thousand?"
"Yes . . . er, NO. A hundred and forty-five."

It seems I could have insisted it was sold at the advertised price, but I have a feeling I'd have met a certain resistance to it being driven away. Not that I was aware of that law then. A garage owner mentioned it when I was relating the tale.
No you couldn't insist on them selling you it at the price. Well you could, but they would be under no obligation. It's called Invitation to Treat. You might have been able to get them on misrepresentation for getting you to Cochester but my suspicion is that The Times were responsible and the dealer would have used that as a defence.
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 07:45
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by M.Mouse View Post
Not sure who your comment was aimed at but you are misunderstanding anyway.

I was pointing out that a three year depreciation of 20 -25% is not realistic when historically the depreciation of most premium brands is usually around 50% after three years. I was also pointing out what a racket it is that a company build a nice car but then charge a fortune to add all the things which rightly should be included in the price.

It would be interesting to see what a Porsche dealer would offer a seller for a three year old Cayman.
You can fluff it as much as you want, bottom line is that you’re still complaining a Porsche is expensive.
As far as misunderstanding, I think you may need to review the definition of optional equipment.
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 09:18
  #33 (permalink)  

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Optional equipment in my book is the name “Porsche”.
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 09:36
  #34 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
No you couldn't insist on them selling you it at the price. Well you could, but they would be under no obligation. It's called Invitation to Treat. You might have been able to get them on misrepresentation for getting you to Cochester but my suspicion is that The Times were responsible and the dealer would have used that as a defence.
A car main dealership in my local town was prosecuted by trading standards after they specifically advertised a finance deal that didn’t exist and someone complained when they tried to buy the car under those terms. IIRC,they were fined £5,000.

It was actually the same dealership who tried to charge my wife four times the advertised “deal” price for a “Silver” car service. In addition to changing the oil and filters, as required, they fitted two new tyres (at well over the going rate for that type of tyre, almost double what they should have cost) and all three wiper blades. They also claimed to have changed indicator bulbs and to have fitted a new set of spark plugs. They tried to argue that the car wasn’t roadworthy without all the extra work they claimed to have done. Even my wife knew that Diesel engines don’t have spark plugs....

They also failed to notice that the car had passed the MOT test less than a week before they got their robbing hands on it. They also claimed that they had gained permission for the work from me. They had no contact details for me and because I’d done a pre MOT check on the vehicle myself I would never have given them permission.

That particular branch of the dealership went out of business. The manager now runs a local tyre and exhaust shop. Not surprisingly, I avoid it.
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 11:39
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Many main dealers are trying to make money more than anything else. They don't care about the customer - only how much money they can screw out of them. They have excessive, large, blingy show rooms, but their quality and value of service is in inverse proportion to the bling of their showroom. I used to go to Audi Aylesbury, (for MOTs and major stuff I didn't have the facilities for); walk in and whichever of the three service agents I knew - Alan, Steve or Vaughn - were free, I would go and sit down at their desk, and they gave me excellent service.

Now there is a stupid edifice in the middle of the showroom with some annoying receptionists, who stop you going past and ask your name and inside leg measurement and tell you to sit down and have a coffee before they will telephone somebody who is sitting in the same room, to ask if they are free !
After 20 mins, during which time I am watching the service agent push some paperwork around, (the three good chaps I knew have long since gone), the agent eventually looks up and registers that I am standing there waiting. Then they invite me over.

Labour rates for dealer workshop technicians are eye watering. No disrespect to the technicians, but they charge about the same per hour that we earned per day as pilots !!! The dealers have to pay for their ludicrous showrooms, and complimentary hire cars, and receptionist desks.

I have no time for all that nonsense and their salesmen in sharp suits. I buy good second hand cars that are mechanically sound, or have faults I can easily fix. You only need to keep an official stamped service record if you want to sell the car on. If you do your own servicing, you know what needs doing and make sure that it is done. Oil and filter changes, using fully synthetic Mobil oil is one of the best ways to protect and prolong your engine. Ditto gearboxes - dealers say gearboxes are filled for life, but that is rubbish - no oil lasts for ever. Also, treat the engine as you would an aircraft engine. Let it idle and warm up before giving it the beans.

A Porsche does not have to be expensive. It obviously costs more than a car designed to last only three years, and it will be expensive if you buy new or nearly new, and use the dealers for servicing.
I am really pleased that Mrs Uplinker's 987 probably has the modified SMS bearing
The exhaust nuts and bolts corrode like nobody's business on the flat 6's, and they might have to be cut off, and re-studded if they ever need to be disturbed to get to something else behind them. Ditto the manifold bolts.

Batteries now need to be registered with some car's ECUs that adjust the charge voltage depending how old the battery is. So a new battery replacing a 5 year old one, say, might be over charged and ruined unless the ECU is reset. Fine, as long as the owner can reset the ECU, but of course they can't unless they have a suitable scan tool. Not every independent garage is aware of battery registering by the way.
.

Last edited by Uplinker; 23rd Feb 2021 at 11:51.
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 12:48
  #36 (permalink)  

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Less Hair

Where is the point in getting a "sports" car like a Porsche first and then select to not shift manually?
ALways an interesting debate! Is it to make the driver feel like a real man? Do F1 cars have manual gearboxes? Or do they have paddle shift like....er.....many high performance road cars with double clutch gearboxes? The Porsche PDK gearbox cars are slightly quicker on acceleration than the manual equivalents.

B2N2

You can fluff it as much as you want, bottom line is that you’re still complaining a Porsche is expensive.
As far as misunderstanding, I think you may need to review the definition of optional equipment.
I own a 911 so understand fully that Porsche cars are expensive. I object to their manipulation of the market i.e. limiting supply of new cars to maintain, in what seems to be a cartel, the excessive used prices.

I know full well what optional means but compare what Porsche consider optional, and the costs of those options, with Japanese manufacturers who put the 'optional' kit on a car that warrants it in the first place!

tdracer

I think you'll find - as a general rule - "Sports Cars" depreciate at a significantly slower rate than most sedans or 'sporty' cars. My S2000 was still worth 80% of MSRP at five years - it slowly dropped down to about 35% at 15 years, but then has started heading back up as a 'collectable' - such that now, 20 years after I bought it, it's worth ~ 50% of it's original price.
The S2000 is a fantastic car but has never been that common. I would suggest it is the exception to the rule.

My 911 is 15 years old. According to its last valuation by the Porsche Club of GB is is worth £7,000 more than I paid for it in 2015. It is common for pre-2000 911s to reach eye watering values but that is more the market dictating the value because the ones seen for sale are usually being sold by private individuals.

I started this thread because I believe that Porsche do two things. 1) they artificially limit the supply of new cars into the UK, something a Porsche salesman more or less told me, and 2) they seem to hold the majority of used Cayman's in the UK and across the country the prices for a 3 year old Cayman appear remarkably similar.
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 15:43
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by M.Mouse View Post
I started this thread because I believe that Porsche do two things. 1) they artificially limit the supply of new cars into the UK, something a Porsche salesman more or less told me, and 2) they seem to hold the majority of used Cayman's in the UK and across the country the prices for a 3 year old Cayman appear remarkably similar.
MM
Although as a consumer I am unhappy about practices that increase my cost of purchase, I have to say that Porsche is not transgressing in any way. Like all car companies nowadays they only build to order, but might then have the possibility to manipulate build-rates to "manage" delivery times. Even there though, I have my doubts. Given today's information flows, I'm sure that any slowing down of the lines in Leipzig or Zuffenhausen would soon be in the papers, especially since Porsche workers enjoy probably the best profit-share scheme in the German car-industry - approx eight weeks wages for the past few years. The chief union representative in the Betriebsrat - for 30 years Uwe Hück - was known for being extremely forceful in the interests of the employees
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 15:59
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Okay gentlemen what do you finally want? Some prestige sports car but cheap. And then you pick automatic because it is more convenient? I still don't get the requirement.
Isn't it something else you are looking for or should be?
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 16:36
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by M.Mouse View Post
tdracer
The S2000 is a fantastic car but has never been that common. I would suggest it is the exception to the rule.
Not on this side of the pond - there was a time when I saw other S2000s all over (less so now that it's been OOP for a decade). Interestingly, convertibles are very popular in the Seattle area - despite all the rain. Something about maximizing the sunshine when you can
But most 2 seat sports cars (especially convertibles) depreciate more slowly than 4 door sedans - Corvettes, RX-7, MR-2, etc. Even many "two+two" sports cars like the Mustang and Camaro depreciate more slowly than the average.
Years ago I picked up a six year old 1990 RX-7 convertible - and paid more than 50% of the original MSRP. Kept it for five more years and sold it (after I picked up the S2000) for about 35% of MSRP.
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 16:40
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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You should see the fields of low mileage Range Rovers that have been handed back at the end of lease to talk about manipulation. A friend offered me an Autograph model with 16k miles two years old £38k as one off before Christmas as that was what the dealer had offered. Unfortunately I have been down the RR route twice, and got burned, so he would have had to have given it me for me to take it.
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