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All land rovers to be electric powered by the end of the decade

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All land rovers to be electric powered by the end of the decade

Old 23rd Feb 2021, 07:11
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Sadly Toyota seem to have lost the plot too. The current Rav4 has a whole string of reliability issues, mostly as far as I can see to do with software. Mysterious flat batteries for no reason, lane-keeping that suddenly zooms you in to the adjacent lane. Otoh LR came convincingly last yet again in this year's big US reliability survey. Oh if only I could have kept my FJ...
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 07:11
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Deltasierra010 View Post
Hardcore 4x4 trucks can gave diff locks all round, although most don’t have them on the front, it’s very easy to break driveshafts - even uprated ones, rock climbing at speed puts immense shock loads on transmissions
Actually that is the reason there are hub locks in front (either manual or automatic). Only to be used when front locks are really required to save the shafts/diff/CV joints.
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 07:35
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FakePilot View Post
I'd also like to mention that I'd like an electric SUV because of all the traction benefits it has. I do remember toy RC cars - if you connected reverse to short the motor, you got anti lock braking because the resistance of the motor increases with speed.
The traction systems are simpler and could be more effective, although I don't know how these particular vehicles are built. A separate motor for each wheel would vastly out perform fake 4wd systems. (True 4wd is you pick up the car and all four wheels spin).
Motors in the wheels would be OK for low speed driving, more articulation and other benefits, no use for higher speeds, adding too much unsprung weight resulting in poor handling, 4 motors plus brakes, rims and tyres would be very heavy.
Hardcore 4x4 trucks can gave diff locks all round, although most don’t have them on the front, it’s very easy to break driveshafts - even uprated ones, rock climbing at speed puts immense shock loads on transmissions
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 08:02
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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There is plenty of HV grid capacity, because of more efficient industrial process, insulation and low power lighting, the distribution system is being reinforced and increasingly installed underground. Not everyone will be able to charge at home, apartment and flat residents may have to use local chargers at supermarkets and other local places
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 13:24
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Beamr View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by "true 4wd" but I'll take it that you mean there are limited slip differentials. Which actually means that all four wheels spin even though one wheel is in the air. (If car is in the air and all wheels hanging loose, there is no resistance difference which would require to limit the slip).
And locking differentials, yes. Although the brake clappers work pretty well. When one side spins, the computer applyes the brake to that side to force the other to turn.
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 13:35
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Deltasierra010 View Post
Motors in the wheels would be OK for low speed driving, more articulation and other benefits, no use for higher speeds, adding too much unsprung weight resulting in poor handling, 4 motors plus brakes, rims and tyres would be very heavy.
Hardcore 4x4 trucks can gave diff locks all round, although most don’t have them on the front, it’s very easy to break driveshafts - even uprated ones, rock climbing at speed puts immense shock loads on transmissions
Yeah, I was dreaming about my futuristic 4x4 there. Electric cars today get around the heavy wheel by having the motors inside with driveshaft/axles. I believe the Prius has a front and rear motor - it's snow handling is impressive. I've replaced a few axles in my time.

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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 16:42
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FakePilot View Post
And locking differentials, yes. Although the brake clappers work pretty well. When one side spins, the computer applyes the brake to that side to force the other to turn.
thats entirely different thing, thats the ABS system acting as artificial resistance generator to cheat power to the wheel with grip. In real world (eg thick snow) those "dynamic stability cheaters" are useless (having first hand experience every winter). On a moist tarmac they might help a bit, but with 20cm of snow...
Hub locks actually really are physical locks lockin the front driveshafts. And thats how it is done with hilux and others.
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Old 24th Feb 2021, 08:52
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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On a slippery road the very last thing you want is a Limited Slip Differential, the sort they fit it to sports cars etc, a few years ago I had a BMW M3, any kind of leaves, mud, ice even a smooth wet surface it was sideways, even a wet roundabout. When both rear wheels spin together and loose traction there is nothing to stop sideways swing, didn’t keep that car for a second winter, some pickups also fit LSD too
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Old 24th Feb 2021, 09:38
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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I believe that is subjective, as I do like to have LSD

I've had RWD's with LSD, some with ABS and DSC's and whatnots, some withou much additional aids (eg BMW Z3's) and I do prefer having a 25% lock in winter. Saved me a few times. And it is a must on a track day car. But those are way different from what we are talking here, having a RWD/FWD as a daily driver, or a 4WD saloon (eg BMW 530xi) or a SUV (eg the X5). None of those are anything near a Land Rover or its kin or offroad worthy at all. When we are talking about off road capable vehicles (which is obvious need for the military), they have LSD's, diff locks, hub locks, all the goodies. And the next gen, "gen 5" is having electric motors on each wheel to achieve the same thing without the weighty and fault prone power line.

An example is the ZIL 131, which were horrible to put it nicely, some of the engineering was causing head scratching, it was somewhat thirsty with its underpowered petrol V8 and 6WD, but man that thing went anywhere. It could climb a tree if enough friction.

Once those were abandoned by FDF and entered civilian markets, some enthusiasts added a charger or two with fuel injection and such. The added power made the thing a real beast. But only because of the power line.

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Old 24th Feb 2021, 09:55
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Inboard motors and brakes would be the way to go. Need CV joints and a drive shaft per wheel, but no heavy outboard brakes or motors. Then you could have real independent AWD and stability control, with no heavy mechanical diffs.


@Deltasierra, are you sure your M3 suspension was OK? I remember going round a wet roundabout in my old Rover/Honda 214, (front wheel drive), quite normally and well below aquaplaning speed - but the rear suddenly slid out !

I caught it by instinctively steering into the skid, but it was old worn suspension. Although, if you were spinning both rear wheels, maybe your right foot was too heavy for the conditions, or it was your tyres. Modern cars have wide tyres which are great in the dry, but worse on slippery surfaces.
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Old 24th Feb 2021, 10:04
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Not at all keen on inboard brakes. I owned a Citroen that had inboard front discs, so the braking loads went through the drive shafts. Had a front drive shaft replaced under warranty and a week later it came apart at the flange where it bolted to the gearbox/brake disc (the garage hadn't tightened the bolts properly). The result was not only a loss of drive, but also the loss of the front brakes, not exactly safe, IMHO.
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Old 24th Feb 2021, 10:47
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, fair enough. Although more a problem of poor garage work. I avoid garages as much as possible - I once asked a garage to change the gearbox oil while they were changing the clutch. Well they drained the old gearbox oil.................A few months later the gearbox started behaving strangely; sticking in gear, sticking out of gear etc. Eventually I discovered that the garage had not put any new oil in the gearbox, so it had been run virtually dry. No dipstick to check, and very difficult to check the level without a car lift - hence I had to take it to a garage. The gearbox internals were trashed and welded/melted, so I had to have a complete rebuild, (by a different garage). And of course I could not prove what the first garage had forgotten to do, so that repair all came out of my pocket
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Old 24th Feb 2021, 14:26
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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In my old motor cycling days when we changed gear ratios in the gearbox we used to gun it up and down the street a few times without any oil in so as to harden the gears.
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Old 24th Feb 2021, 14:52
  #134 (permalink)  

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My “pet” motorsport is classic trials. This involves driving relatively long distances between off road sections, usually muddy tracks or special tests on grass. Limited slip diffs aren’t allowed (unless it can be shown that it was originally fitted as standard) because they give a great advantage over “open” ones when it comes to traction. Four wheel drive is prohibited.

As an aside, this is one sport where rear wheel drive is a definite advantage due to weight “transfer” on steep slopes.
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Old 24th Feb 2021, 15:02
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
My “pet” motorsport is classic trials. This involves driving relatively long distances between off road sections, usually muddy tracks or special tests on grass. Limited slip diffs aren’t allowed (unless it can be shown that it was originally fitted as standard) because they give a great advantage over “open” ones when it comes to traction. Four wheel drive is prohibited.

As an aside, this is one sport where rear wheel drive is a definite advantage due to weight “transfer” on steep slopes.
Only way to get my old front wheel drive Toyota up our drive in the snow was to turn around and reverse it up. Worked a treat, it would climb slippery slopes backwards very much more easily than it would forwards.
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Old 24th Feb 2021, 19:14
  #136 (permalink)  

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A few years ago I was helping out a friend and had borrowed a very old diesel powered Renault Kangoo FWD van. During the day it snowed heavily. We set of home early evening and the roads were snow covered but generally OK. My friend lived in a village on the top of a hill. We decided to use the least steep of all the roads into the village. It was snow covered and slippery. About 50 yards from the top a people carrier came to a halt and as we went to steer around it, the doors opened and people jumped out to push forcing us to stop. I thought that would be us stuck. However we pulled away easily as if the road was dry!

When I thought about it the van was FWD, heavy diesel engine over the front wheels and narrow tyres. Bit of an education really.
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Old 25th Feb 2021, 06:35
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Only way to get my old front wheel drive Toyota up our drive in the snow was to turn around and reverse it up. Worked a treat, it would climb slippery slopes backwards very much more easily than it would forwards.
Why Beetles were good on snow with their skinny 15" wheels, but also why I frequently found myself suddenly reversing at approximately the same velocity.
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Old 25th Feb 2021, 08:47
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner View Post
Why Beetles were good on snow with their skinny 15" wheels, but also why I frequently found myself suddenly reversing at approximately the same velocity.
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My Saab 96 was also rather good at snow, 155/70-15 tyres, big open wheel arches and a heavy V4 on top of it.
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Old 25th Feb 2021, 09:43
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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When slowly going uphill the Harz mountains on snowy roads in the winter in the Renault 4 of my parents, my sister and I would sit on the engine hood to improve the traction looking down on all those "stronger" automatic Mercedes cars stuck on the side of the street. Our R4 even had some tool to manually crank the engine without any battery power. It was a pretty usable car with a lot of interior space and almost jeep like capabilities. Unfortunately it rusted away and was tricky to repair. A lot of disassembly needed every time.
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Old 25th Feb 2021, 10:40
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Less Hair View Post
Unfortunately it rusted away and was tricky to repair. A lot of disassembly needed every time.
I remember working on a friends Renault 4, it was often an engine out job for even simple stuff. The timing chain cover, for example, was right up tight against the bulkhead, so the engine and transaxle had to come out to work on it. I also remember helping him "upgrade" the engine. He'd got hold of the bigger engine from another Renault, that outwardly looked near identical to the Renault 4 engine. We spent a day swapping the engines over, only to find that the car now had one forward gear and four reverse gears. Renault, in their wisdom, had chosen to reverse the direction of rotation of the engine between the two models.
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