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George Blake has died

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George Blake has died

Old 30th Dec 2020, 21:55
  #41 (permalink)  
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Walentin Falin, Soviet Ambassador to FRG 1971-1978
made the following statement "Illegalem Eindringen und
abohoeren geschutzt " with reference to their Hotel
Groyen Embassy. In English "Illegal entry and eavesdropping
protected".
I remember the floods at the end of May 1983 were so
severe a little further down stream, that after going to
Brussels at the weekend I returned to my residence on
the Rhine, and had to relocate to the Steigenberger hotel
in Bad Neuenahr for a week.
Lance Shippey.

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Old 31st Dec 2020, 21:31
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Less Hair said..."So where will he be buried? Would be interesting to know if he had wanted to return his remains to the UK if that option existed?"


Guy Burgess is buried in a churchyard in West Meon, Hampshire; I suppose the option does indeed exist.
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Old 1st Jan 2021, 11:39
  #43 (permalink)  
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I would think a fitting place for Blake's burial would be
the Tower of London, overlooking "Traitors Gate".
I imagine this would require the consent of Mrs Windsor.
Liz, ("I speak to you as your Queen and a grandmother")
rather than Babs ("Get out of my Pub") R.I.P. who would
require the services of a Spiritualist.
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Old 1st Jan 2021, 11:53
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For all the heat I'm never quite sure what all this spying ever accomplishes as part of the big picture

Over the last say 100 years the number of critical differences made by spies (excluding code breaking) can be counted on the fingers of one had I suspect
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Old 1st Jan 2021, 12:24
  #45 (permalink)  
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Some years ago, I asked a British High Commissioner and
Government Advisor what he thought of Spies. His answer
"They are all paid liars".

I have on several occasions, stood at the gravestone of
"Spy Trader" Prof. Dr. Wolfgang Vogel at Schliersee who
negotiated the release of 150 spies during the Cold War.
His office was involved in reducing the sentence of a friend
who had tried to escape from the GDR.
I ask my self "Was Prof Dr. Vogel a Good or Bad man ?
I find it difficult to answer, probably more good than bad

In Blake's case. overwhelmingly Bad, and it is right that
his body remains in Russia.

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Old 1st Jan 2021, 12:33
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Vogel was some high ranking part of "their" system. Driving a golden Mercedes and having homes in the west, earning hard currency, harvesting and inheriting the private homes of your forced "clients" on the way out and some permanent travel permit certainly makes life a little easier when you work to support the East German government. Still finally you opt for Bavaria the pure postcard west for your permanent private underground residence.

All this spy business looks very sad to me: Exploiting the weak or making them weak first to exploit them afterwards.

Last edited by Less Hair; 1st Jan 2021 at 13:18.
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Old 1st Jan 2021, 19:09
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I had always been mildly curious as to why le Carré spent so little time in MI5 and MI6 before "retiring" from the intelligence services. This is probably why: From The Guardian:

"As a result of Blake and Philby’s treachery, the intelligence “game” – certainly on a human level – came to be not so much about gathering great military and political secrets as about penetrating each other’s agencies. Like the writings of his fellow MI6 officer, David Cornwell (John le Carré), whose identity he betrayed, Blake’s life and activities chronicle the utter waste, the cynicism and the desolation that was the cold war."
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Old 1st Jan 2021, 19:23
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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I've been at a few international meetings where the presence of a member of the security service was made clear to the British delegation beforehand, primarily as we had to pretend they were a part of our technical team. I always assumed that the other countries present played the same game. The only time I witnessed what seemed to be crude and overt behaviour was at a meeting with CSIR, where it was clear that they had a pretty amateur SA security service member in their team, one that seemed not to have had even a rudimentary briefing on the subject matter.

I rather think that the physical presence of security service personnel on the front line is over-played in the media now. It seems that 99.99% of intelligence gathering is SIGINT, mainly via GCHQ. The only places that seem to need a physical presence are places like some ME states and maybe places like SA, where there is still a need to have bodies on the ground trying to gather information. Even then I suspect it's not that effective when compared to the tech side of intelligence gathering now.
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Old 1st Jan 2021, 19:47
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
For all the heat I'm never quite sure what all this spying ever accomplishes as part of the big picture

Over the last say 100 years the number of critical differences made by spies (excluding code breaking) can be counted on the fingers of one had I suspect
Entry of Spain into WW2 ?
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Old 2nd Jan 2021, 10:22
  #50 (permalink)  
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Dear Less Hair,
Thanks for the input regarding Wolfgang Vogel. I am not sure if I recognise the description completely.
Yes, He was described as "The man with the Golden Mercedes". At the time of the Powers + Pryor /
Abels swap, he drove an Opel Rekord, to be replaced with an Opel Kapitain. He borrowed a Mercedes
from a butcher friend during the Pryor Checkpoint Charlie release. Pryor's Father had paid Vogel $25,000.
to secure the release of their son. There should have been a third Westerner involved in the exchange.
Marvin Makkinen, an American tourist captured in the Soviet Union should also have been released.
The Golden Mercedes came after the Opel's and were provided by the Secret section for commercial
co-ordination in the ministry of foreign trade's functionary Alexander Schalk Golodowski.
The picture postcard home of Vogel and his second wife Helga, came after the fall of the Wall. Vogel
chose Schliersee, and Shalk Golodowski chose a neighbouring town of Rottach Egern am Tegernsee,
as did Mikael Gorbachev (Gorbachev buying Villa Hubertus Schoessl).
The film "Bridge of Spies" was not a true portrayal of Prof. Dr. Vogel. He did not drive a Volvo P1800,
nor did he speak much English. His wife would do most of the driving, allowing him to keep a clear head.
Francis Meehan did much of the negotiations during the Pryor + Powers / Abels exchanges, and told me
that he enjoyed the Spielberg film as did I.
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Old 2nd Jan 2021, 10:42
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Vogel Mercedes
That is the final one as an example.
Aside from Bavaria he had more homes in the West. Like in West-Berlin. I passed by his parked golden Mercedes almost daily next to one of his apartments in the "American Sector" of Berlin for some time.

Vogel was less of a spy although very likely linked up with Stasi on a VERY high level but more of a hard currency generator. Selling 33.755 political prisoners to the West (at 100.000 Deutschmarks/piece) and trading the odd spy. Schalk-Golodkowski did the same with art, private collections, antiques, weapons, services, products, raw materials and such. Both had no moral limits they had to generate western cash by all means.

Last edited by Less Hair; 2nd Jan 2021 at 10:59.
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Old 2nd Jan 2021, 10:46
  #52 (permalink)  
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VP959.
I agree that times have changed.
The effectiveness of Bodies on the ground was dependant on the quality of the
body. and sometimes the outcome of intelligence gathered did not always match
match the expected result. (such as the break up of the USSR).
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Old 2nd Jan 2021, 11:15
  #53 (permalink)  
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Vogel was a Stasi informer and used the codename "George" and "Eva"
He was licenced to practice law in the East and West, that is one of the
reasons why Pryor's parents hired him. His first wife, and their two children
defected to the West, with the help of Vogel's friend, Swedish diplomat and
former opera singer Carl-Gustaf Svingel. The apartment in the American
sector of West Berlin may have been the home of his wife and children.
There were a number of Mercedes delivered through KoKo's Schalk
Godolowski department. (I supplied a breakdown of some of them on
another forum website) Correct the last of his Mercedes was listed as
being destined for him. (Most probably because of the the extra foot
button installed for a siren. The car was recently sold through a car
dealer in Laipzig, had very low mileage, and had been stored in a"Friends"
garage in Bavaria.
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Old 2nd Jan 2021, 11:34
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So even the wealthiest most privileged core and key supporters of the system opted out.
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Old 3rd Jan 2021, 13:57
  #55 (permalink)  
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Less Hair.
Another possibility of your seeing the "Golden Mercedes" of Wolfgang Vogel
in the American sector. Vogel was a frequent visitor to "Haus Victoria" located
in Grunewald (American sector near Dahlem) at Winkler Strasse. This was a
former Swedish rest home, owned by Swedish diplomat Carl-Gustaf Svingel.
Many of the spy-swap negotiations between East and West were conducted
in this villa. There was a direct phone link between the Bonn Government and
the SED leaders in East Berlin. Vogel's Golden Mercedes would be seen parked
nearby often, plus a Volvo PV444, and Volvo P1800 with West German diplo
plates which belonged to Svingel. (The Volvo P1800 shown in film "Bridge of
Spies" was nothing to do with Vogel, and the model used in the film was made
by Jensen in Britain, and the hub caps suggest that it was produced a year after
the appearance of the spy swap in the film)
Carl-Gustaf Svingel's real name was Samuelson, and the story in fascinating.
search. carlgustafsvingel. redviking.se. /1930's-when-gustaf-samuelson became-
carl-gustaf-svigel. and carlgustafsvingel.redviking.se. / Humanitarian Carl Gustaf
Svingel and the friend "The Vogelhandler" plus Carl Gustaf Svingel. redviking.se.
/who is the Swede next to Mayor Brandt. These Swedish pages are in SE/DE/EN.
and gives a great insight into the whole story.
There is a great photograph of Frank J Meehan's (U.S. Ambassador to the GDR
in 1986 ) with Wolfgang Vogel at the Glienecke Bridge during a spy swap. The
US Lincoln registered in the GDR with CD-61-1 on a red background. The 61 was
for USA, and the 1 represents the importance (1=Ambassador) CD-1-1 would be
the Soviet Ambassador's car, and CD-41-1 the British Ambassadors car.
The photo is under.
https://berlin.museum-digital.de/sin...?imagenr=19471
There were 150 invited guests to the church service at the funeral of Wolfgang
Vogel in Schliersee, the same amount of spy exchanges he was involved with.
His friend Frank Meehan would attend the funeral.
Lance Shippey


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Old 3rd Jan 2021, 19:10
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I am referring to a different street and place that felt more like a private apartment well but not so far away. However it was typical to see that very car being parked there. A golden mercedes with east Berlin plates certainly made me curious.
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Old 6th Jan 2021, 15:16
  #57 (permalink)  
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Hi Less Hair.
Vogel owned a villa on the banks of the Teupitzer See (Lake Teupitz) 28 miles south
of East Berlin, in the state of Brandenberg. The Golden Mercedes reg. IS-00-44 was
one of the first W124 series, fitted with a C netz telephone, foot pedal for siren, radio
cassette and leather first aid kit. It also had a DDR Freifahrt Erlaubnis which was a
special permission to be driven outside the DDR. Vogel owned it from 24/09/1985
and driven until 1999, when it was store in the garage of a friend near Schliersee.
It was bought in the past couple of years by Auto dealer Gerrit Crummenerl's GENEX
company near Leipzig. The car had 160,000 kms on the clock. GENEX also bought
the Red VW Golf owned by Ice Skater Katerina Witt.
Haus Victoria at Winkerstrasse 5, Grunerwald also contained some apartments.
I have passed the property on several occasions, and on street parking was a problem.
I also think that a DDR registered car would have drawn attention to the villa, which
was fairly secret, so Vogel would have parked in a different street, and walked to
Haus Victoria. The car would also have been seen around the Moabit jail, which is
in the British sector, when Vogel was defending Erich Honecker, after his arrest.

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Old 6th Jan 2021, 16:49
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A little more info on the Villa on the Lake.
The viilage of Zeuthen was a green hiding place for "Stasi Bigwigs" some
of Vogel's neighbours were Alexander Schalk-Golodowski (Ko-Ko) who
supplied Vogel the Mercedes, and became a friend also moving nearby
Vogel in Bavaria after the fall of the wall.
Another neighbour for a while in 1989 in Zeuthen was Daniel Ortega
Saavedra, President of Nicaragua. Ortega was a guest at the 40th.
anniversary of the founding of the DDR in the Palast of the Republik
on the 06th October 1989.(just over a month before the fall of the wall)
Margot Honecker remained "Pals" with Snr. Ortega.

http://www.dw.com/en/widow-of-gdr-le...agua/a-3498045

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Old 6th Jan 2021, 17:12
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I was not talking about that Grunewald place but another one at Dahlem with the parked car. He likely had several places to choose from.
"Freie Fahrt" card and status meant unlimited driving fun within the DDR. Speed as you like or park wherever you want and no police officer would dare to fine you for anything. Some typical upper party class car accessory back then. Bit like working class royalty. There where different styles and logos or flags on them. Something like this:
https://images.app.goo.gl/wfjEis66uyzmMLNx5

Mr. Schalck's main residence and private home was located at Hohenschönhausen within Stasi's VIP-neighbourhood at Manetstraße in north east Berlin. Next to the entire Stasi haute volée with many generals and including Minister Mielkes planned retirement home, son and right hand and not far from Stasi HQ. His "Datsche" was located at Kleiner Döllnsee north of Berlin and south of Templin air base and close to where Görings private mansion Carinhall used to be. Görings former guest house at Großer Döllnsee was later on taken over by Mr. Honecker, general secretary of SED socialist party as a private retreat.

Last edited by Less Hair; 6th Jan 2021 at 18:06.
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Old 14th Jan 2021, 12:56
  #60 (permalink)  
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Dear Less Hair.
Thanks for the info. I was familiar with Hohenschoenhausen and the Stasi
Jail, but not Manetstrasse, which is situated on the Orankesee in" Alt-
Hohenschoenhausen" about 2 miles away from Hohenschoenhausen.
The Manetstrasse home of Schalk-Golodowski was a special design,
built with special hydraulic walls in the cellar, which could be raised or
lowered to feature his art collection. Two heated kennels were also built
to accommodate his two mastiffs, who he would walk around the Orankesee
and nearby Obersee. His second home at Zeuthen possibly had similar
"Extras" to house his art collection. Wolfgang Vogel visited the Schalk-
Golodowski's on the night of 3rd December 1989, to warn him of his
imminent arrest. and the couple fled to West Berlin. Alexander Schalk
Golodowski was arrested on the 4th December 1989 in West Berlin.
Markus Wolf, head of East German foreign espionage, and his deputy
lived in an apartment on Oberstrasse, overlooking the Obersee. Wolf
upstairs, and his deputy on the ground floor. When Wolf retired in 1986
he had to vacate the property immediately.

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