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Gliding - now I get it

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Gliding - now I get it

Old 21st Dec 2020, 09:35
  #121 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by rich34glider View Post
To get somewhat back on topic - i.e. why gliding is great - here in Western Australia we are forecasting thermals to 15,000 feet (under Cu!) on Thursday, so I'm planning to pay about $50 AUD for an aerotow & take my $10,000 44 year-old glider (Grob Astir CS) for a 6 hour spin, with the goal of flying a task of between 550 - 650 km. People underestimate how much adventure & fun can be had for such little money in a glider!
Ah. well, at least with the wx forecast, you stand a good chance of keeping an Astir airborne.......to be ( almost ) fair, on a good day, the type was pretty good.....not so when scratching however ..always found the ailerons to be a shade "heavy " ......the brakes were quite impressive though " worked better than advertised " as they say.
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 09:40
  #122 (permalink)  
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Go for it Mate! A bloke I worked with at the Waikerie Gliding Club some years back was convinced that a 750km task was possible in an Astir 77 the Club then owned.

He managed to get one day off when the conditions were forecast to be suitable and gave it a go, despite starting a bit late.

Fell about 40km short if I remember correctly. Think he ran out of daylight!

If you're reading this Mike, care to clarify?
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 09:41
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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Talking of holding controls, after one of my early gliding lessons, the instructor asked me to show him how I was holding the stick; being a tandem (K13) he couldnít see when flying. He identified the spade handle technique and coached a finger-tip hold, with the middle and little finger tucked behind. It worked, and is a technique I still use today, especially if in a tensing-up situation.
Like other posters, my early training suffered from multiple instructors with varying abilities. Some created stress straight away. When you are young you donít always have the confidence or experience to know if its them or you. One of the most frustrating, so much that I told him outright that I felt i hadnít learnt anything (i was 16) had never let go of the controls; when I attempted to turn he would resist me. At the end of the flight he said Iíd done well. I felt Iíd done little more than follow through on the controls!
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 10:05
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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I am puzzled - not unusual, you might say!
Why? - At #113, I posted a link to another forum thread which , I would have thought, was highly relevant to this one. There has not been a single response to the extraordinary and highly instructional video shown there.
Have none of the previous contributors considered it worthy of noting let alone commenting on? Those two guys remain alive due to accidental geography and an undeserved hand-out of LUCK ... but it passes unremarked!
I have only a miniscule direct involvement in gliding (one cable launch in the 'Barge'), but a lifetime in aviation and a large proportion in the Flight Safety area - and I would have thought that that video offered exceptional relevance in that particular area. Having been a witness to Andy Gough's fatal display at the Brize Open Day, I, personally, need no further prompting as to the dangers associated with aviation in any form. I would hate to think that the gliding community feel somehow immune to the laws of Nature!
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 10:56
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cornish Jack View Post
Having been a witness to Andy Gough's fatal display at the Brize Open Day, I, personally, need no further prompting as to the dangers associated with aviation in any form.
My association with gliding was only ATC air experience flights, plus a year or so getting to Bronze C, before packing it in as it was eating my earnings too quickly (plus a new woman came on the scene), so I don't feel qualified to comment about that near miss.

On the topic of the late Andy Gough, one of my clearest memories is lying on the grass at Culdrose on a summer evening, the night before Air Day, watching Andy pull an outside loop in the club Blanik. From the ground the creaks and pops as the airframe got stressed in the "wrong" direction were clear. His finishing routine at Culdrose wasn't as impressive as at Bicester, just a fast pass downwind along the runway, with the wheel almost skimming the ground, followed by a pull up into a chandelle and landing. I saw him practising at Bicester once, and the end of his display routine there was made even more impressive by dipping down, out of sight, into the quarry, before popping back up and landing. His ability to judge just how much energy he had at any time was impressive, to say the least. I'm not altogether convinced that he always stayed within the placard limits, mind.
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 11:19
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cornish Jack View Post
I am puzzled - not unusual, you might say!
Why? - At #113, I posted a link to another forum thread which , I would have thought, was highly relevant to this one. There has not been a single response to the extraordinary and highly instructional video shown there.
Have none of the previous contributors considered it worthy of noting let alone commenting on? Those two guys remain alive due to accidental geography and an undeserved hand-out of LUCK ... but it passes unremarked!
Most glider pilots will have already seen the video CJ.
99.9% of glider pilots would have automatically turned right to remain clear of cloud.
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 11:30
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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I would suggest that most glider pilots would not have gone near this clag unless they had an IR and the requisite kit onboard. It was time to slip away long before it got to this point.

IG
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 11:51
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Instructor on the stick.
Had it on a verity of aircraft..last was on a requalification in France a couple of years ago where I let go of the stick and his nibs unbeknown landed himself...said that was better then sent me solo..
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 12:11
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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VP - Your description of Andy Gough's display was interesting - particularly "His ability to judge just how much energy he had at any time was impressive, to say the least. I'm not altogether convinced that he always stayed within the placard limits, mind." I noted the conclusion of the BoI into the crash and it didn't 'gel' with what I saw (or, perhaps, thouight I saw). My memory sees a momentary 'lack of energy' on a 45deg inverted downward which attempted correction with very short period pitch N/U and immediate reversal - followed by the outer wings fold. I saw that as short-period overstress and retain that belief. The remarkable thing was that so few people saw it happen. The commentary was drowned out by aircraft noise and he arrived overhead, on tow, almost unnoticed. An American family directly behind me were concentrating on their candy-floss purchase from the van and saw nothing of the initial display or the crash.
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 12:19
  #130 (permalink)  

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Most glider pilots will have already seen the video CJ.
Me too and although I have relatively little gliding experience from the first minute of the first video it was obvious what was going to happen.

The second video analysing the situation left me with the distinct impression the commentator was being extremely generous in his constructive criticism.
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 12:20
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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VP959 I experienced an outside loop from the cockpit of the Blanik with Andy Gough at the end of my first instructor course and a couple of years before his sad demise at the air show. He was a great man and I owe a lot of my subsequent flying career to him. It is a long time ago but was not there some mention of control blockage from foreign objects. Perhaps I misremember?

Last edited by lederhosen; 21st Dec 2020 at 17:12.
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 12:28
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cornish Jack View Post
VP - Your description of Andy Gough's display was interesting - particularly "His ability to judge just how much energy he had at any time was impressive, to say the least. I'm not altogether convinced that he always stayed within the placard limits, mind." I noted the conclusion of the BoI into the crash and it didn't 'gel' with what I saw (or, perhaps, thouight I saw). My memory sees a momentary 'lack of energy' on a 45deg inverted downward which attempted correction with very short period pitch N/U and immediate reversal - followed by the outer wings fold. I saw that as short-period overstress and retain that belief. The remarkable thing was that so few people saw it happen. The commentary was drowned out by aircraft noise and he arrived overhead, on tow, almost unnoticed. An American family directly behind me were concentrating on their candy-floss purchase from the van and saw nothing of the initial display or the crash.

IIRC, the accident was caused by a control restriction, I thought. One thing a couple of us working as ground crew noted was that he always, without fail, zeroed the G meter as soon as he'd landed and before anyone on the ground got to the aircraft. There were suggestions that this might have been because he exceeded the (I think) -2.5g rating during that outside loop.
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 13:48
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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lederhosen - No, you are not mistaken - it was classed as due to a control restriction from FOD. That may well have been the case but there was no mention , that I can recall, of the (to me) direct cause - the rapid pitch reversal.
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 15:17
  #134 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Cornish Jack View Post
I am puzzled - not unusual, you might say!
Why? - At #113, I posted a link to another forum thread which , I would have thought, was highly relevant to this one. There has not been a single response to the extraordinary and highly instructional video shown there.
Have none of the previous contributors considered it worthy of noting let alone commenting on? Those two guys remain alive due to accidental geography and an undeserved hand-out of LUCK ... but it passes unremarked!
I have only a miniscule direct involvement in gliding (one cable launch in the 'Barge'), but a lifetime in aviation and a large proportion in the Flight Safety area - and I would have thought that that video offered exceptional relevance in that particular area. Having been a witness to Andy Gough's fatal display at the Brize Open Day, I, personally, need no further prompting as to the dangers associated with aviation in any form. I would hate to think that the gliding community feel somehow immune to the laws of Nature!
CJ,

One word you and most of us will be only too familiar with re the underlined above........culture. For many years, " more than a few " civilian members of the BGA had what you might call a minimal approach to flight safety, thankfully, this has now changed, in contrast to GSA clubs. There are posts on here which clearly demonstrate this
That said, much depended on the culture of the club to start with. A friend of mine, after leaving the RAF, became CFI of one such club whose accident record was not really one you would be proud of. He left, after a short time, because at he said, they were a law into themselves and he wasn't / couldn't change matters.and he'd no wish to attend coroners courts. .

Cloud flying. As with any form of advanced flying, you need to be trained first before happily flying into cloud under the impression you know how to fly on instruments. I am aware of at least one, possibly two, sadly fatal accidents in the GSA where disorientation in cloud led to the inevitable. I cannot comment, as I don't know, what training had been previously undertaken.

Wave flying. Great when it works, "interesting " in the rotor, but, drummed into you, was the fact any gap you could see at altitude could easily and rapidly close before you got anywhere near on the descent and at that point, when you entered cloud, your eyes were firmly fixed on the instruments to say straight and level until clear and a horizon appeared again.

That video. I think it's a credit to the pilots in one sense, that they put it into the public domain because it's going to be a "must see " flight safety training in every club. Transparency and openess, are, to me, key to flight safety, and indeed any safety critical operations....probably why, being on the safety committee of the railway, they took exception to me making it clear their culture and open disregard for legislation meant they should have stayed with Hornby kits along with covering up incidents.

Andy Gough ( RIP )....in some ways, a classic Swiss cheese. "Father" was noted for his ever increasing " close to the envelope, if not outside it " flying displays and, whilst nobody can / could, dispute his flying skills, there was the problem, due to whom he was, as to who was going to tell him to tone them down at bit. FOD was a factor. Human error then combined to align the holes.
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 15:28
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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Dublin gliding club

Bought a k21 from a german club who decided to remove the glide computer before handing it over...bank in Dublin during an aerobatic session whilst flying a 45 degree down line elevator blocked..two pairs of hands managed to get nose up....found bent 8mm spanner..dankeshoen.
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 15:31
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
One word you and most of us will be only too familiar with re the underlined above........culture. For many years, " more than a few " civilian members of the BGA had what you might call a minimal approach to flight safety, thankfully, this has now changed, in contrast to GSA clubs. There are posts on here which clearly demonstrate this
I agree wholeheartedly with this. Years ago, I worked with a very nice chap who was involved with the running of the BGA in some capacity (Howard Torode). I'd been involved with some regulatory stuff with the CAA, so he invited me to give a presentation to some of the BGA big wigs at Lasham. This was at the time that registration, certification, etc was being pretty much imposed on the gliding world here. One thing notable at that meeting was that a fair proportion of those present were opposed to having their DIY approach to flying and maintaining aeroplanes taken away. One thing that got mentioned time and time again was that their system wasn't broken, so didn't need changing. I did bite my tongue a bit, given that it was fairly common knowledge that flight safety within some BGA clubs wasn't as good as it could have been.

Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Andy Gough ( RIP )....in some ways, a classic Swiss cheese. "Father" was noted for his ever increasing " close to the envelope, if not outside it " flying displays and, whilst nobody can / could, dispute his flying skills, there was the problem, due to whom he was, as to who was going to tell him to tone them down at bit. FOD was a factor. Human error then combined to align the holes.
That fits well with the view expressed by some of the better glider pilots who were discussing his flying, before that fatal accident. Those that seemed to understand the limitations of the aeroplane were pretty vocal about it being flown probably in excess of Vne at times during the display, with the airframe probably being stressed right to, or even in excess, of the placard limits. He was a very capable and highly respected pilot, though, so few had the temerity to make their thoughts public. Perhaps if they had he might still be alive. I do remember that the Blanik was serviced straight after he displayed in it, as it was felt it needed a more in-depth inspection than just a DI, before students went up in it.
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 17:57
  #137 (permalink)  
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With regard to the video, this one offers an interesting, and informative, analysis. Do, please, read the comments about cloud flying in the UK and glass.




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Old 21st Dec 2020, 18:04
  #138 (permalink)  

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In post #130 I mentioned this video and said 'The second video analysing the situation left me with the distinct impression the commentator was being extremely generous in his constructive criticism.'
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 18:06
  #139 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by blind pew View Post
Bought a k21 from a german club who decided to remove the glide computer before handing it over...bank in Dublin during an aerobatic session whilst flying a 45 degree down line elevator blocked..two pairs of hands managed to get nose up....found bent 8mm spanner..dankeshoen.
OK, so the German club clearly contributed to the incident with the FOD, however, given it was de rigged, came in a trailer, and was new to you, then it's a much your own fault for failing to carry out an acceptance check detailed inspection.
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 18:40
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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I've never really thought about it before but, now I look back, I suppose that "hairy moments" were not uncommon in gliding in the 60's. In my short gliding career of only 5 years I witnessed one fatal accident, one serious and several minor ones. That is far more than the very few I have seen in 30years of power flying. Some of the more hairy flyers in my day were actually the more experienced ones. After a flight with the BGA Coach of the day who carried out a somewhat low approach, I was met by an embarrassed CFI who wanted me to assure him that I wasn't flying the T49. The Chief tug pilot at Dunstable used to finish his aerotows over the launch point so that he could spin the Tiger Moth down into a side slip and landing ready for the next tow. They stopped him doing this when they found that the shock cooling was cracking the exhaust studs. He eventually went to be the CFI at Booker. At the Long Mynd my solo check flight was rushed so that the instructor could get off into the wave conditions. He was happy for me to go off solo into the same conditions of low broken cloud which did not look unlike the conditions in the above video. It was my only experience of wave soaring spoiled by fear of hitting something or having to land out in unfamiliar country in late evening.
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