Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

Hong Kong -- What does the future hold?

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

Hong Kong -- What does the future hold?

Old 9th Jul 2020, 14:04
  #41 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 11,317
Interesting points dr dre. You do wonder how much those factors you highlight are outweighed by restrictions on civil liberties though?
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” Benjamin Franklin

Hong Kong GDP per capita is 20% higher than the UK
COVID death rate approx 600 times higher in UK
Average Life Expectancy 3.5 years longer in HK
Crime (murder) rate 45% lower in HK than the UK
About double the number of hospital beds per capita in HK
Better food.....
“That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
Alexis de Tocqueville

“As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air – however slight – lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.” Supreme Court Justice William Douglas
ORAC is offline  
Old 9th Jul 2020, 14:47
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5,120
I worked in China on and off for fourteen years. I found it a pleasant place to live and all my Chinese friends didn't seem to mind either. I never discussed politics and from what I gathered nobody else did because they were too busy setting themselves up in life.

The streets were clean, as were the taxis and buses. I had my pocket picked twice without my knowing which is better than being mugged. Rape is still a capital offence and so is kiddy fiddling which means that your daughters are fairly safe.

I always had the feeling that I had more personal freedom in China than I did in this politically correct United Kingdom.

Fareastdriver is offline  
Old 9th Jul 2020, 16:03
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 1,269
Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” Benjamin Franklin
It's Asian culture. Individual rights are placed below the collective well being. The quotes of Ben Franklin, Jefferson, Washington and others on "liberty and freedom" won't hold sway with a Chinese audience as much as teachings from Chinese philosophers that emphasize collective group harmony over individual freedoms.
dr dre is offline  
Old 9th Jul 2020, 16:48
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 62
dr dre it pleases me to read that post 43.
rifruffian is offline  
Old 9th Jul 2020, 16:56
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 19,237
Originally Posted by N707ZS View Post
The Brexit fans are going to love the idea of three million Hong Kong folk coming to the UK.

I'm a brexit fan and I totally agree with it, we made promises and agreements with China over the population of Hong Kong, China has decided to renege on that deal, so it is totally right for the U.K. to support those people, otherwise what would our word mean in the rest of the world.
NutLoose is offline  
Old 9th Jul 2020, 16:59
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: apogee
Age: 66
Posts: 69
Kind of like a big cult isn't it?
meadowrun is online now  
Old 9th Jul 2020, 17:23
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: surfing, watching for sharks
Posts: 3,732
Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
It's Asian culture. Individual rights are placed below the collective well being. The quotes of Ben Franklin, Jefferson, Washington and others on "liberty and freedom" won't hold sway with a Chinese audience as much as teachings from Chinese philosophers that emphasize collective group harmony over individual freedoms.

Asian culture is changing as evidenced by a whole lot of Asians protesting in HK recently. Cultural norms shift, in other cases shackles placed upon a society who were accustomed to certain freedoms are rejected.
West Coast is offline  
Old 9th Jul 2020, 17:28
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: surfing, watching for sharks
Posts: 3,732
Originally Posted by Fareastdriver View Post
I worked in China on and off for fourteen years. I found it a pleasant place to live and all my Chinese friends didn't seem to mind either. I never discussed politics and from what I gathered nobody else did because they were too busy setting themselves up in life.

The streets were clean, as were the taxis and buses. I had my pocket picked twice without my knowing which is better than being mugged. Rape is still a capital offence and so is kiddy fiddling which means that your daughters are fairly safe.

I always had the feeling that I had more personal freedom in China than I did in this politically correct United Kingdom.
As long as your freedoms were ones that aligned with the CCP. Write a book critical of Xi and youíll know for sure. Write a book critical of Bojo and youíll be the darling of the media.

Thereís a reason many residents of HK are protesting, itís not because they had their pockets picked.
West Coast is offline  
Old 9th Jul 2020, 23:46
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 1,269
Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
Asian culture is changing as evidenced by a whole lot of Asians protesting in HK recently. Cultural norms shift, in other cases shackles placed upon a society who were accustomed to certain freedoms are rejected.
No itís not. Protests have always happened in Asian culture. Disagreement isnít uncommon. But itís very hard to overturn 2500 years of philosophy and teaching that emphasises deference to elders and a collectivist mindset.

HKers only represent 0.4% of Chinaís population anyway. And not all of them agree with the protests. There has been a drop in support for the protesters in recent months. I have a feeling this protest movement will die out once the majority of HKers see they wonít be affected by the new law.
dr dre is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2020, 04:21
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: surfing, watching for sharks
Posts: 3,732
Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
No itís not. Protests have always happened in Asian culture. Disagreement isnít uncommon. But itís very hard to overturn 2500 years of philosophy and teaching that emphasises deference to elders and a collectivist mindset.

HKers only represent 0.4% of Chinaís population anyway. And not all of them agree with the protests. There has been a drop in support for the protesters in recent months. I have a feeling this protest movement will die out once the majority of HKers see they wonít be affected by the new law.

You support the new law?
West Coast is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2020, 06:30
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: back out to Grasse
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
No it’s not. Protests have always happened in Asian culture. Disagreement isn’t uncommon. But it’s very hard to overturn 2500 years of philosophy and teaching that emphasises deference to elders and a collectivist mindset.

HKers only represent 0.4% of China’s population anyway. And not all of them agree with the protests. There has been a drop in support for the protesters in recent months. I have a feeling this protest movement will die out once the majority of HKers see they won’t be affected by the new law.
Do you really believe that the majority of Hong Kong people will not be affected? How do you think they will feel when the great Chinese firewall drops on their unsuspecting phones and laptops. Whether they choose to protest is a different matter, the people of Hong Kong know full well the implications of sticking their heads above the parapet.

I had a dear friend who was prepared to confide in me regarding her experiences living in Paris during WW2. The overwhelming fear of the banging on the door at 2:00 AM, trying to use a domestic radio to hear the BBC while another child kept a watch by the window for the detector vans, and gestapo. Since she was not actively engaged in the resistance (but had knowledge of people who were). She and her parents had to be prepared to take the ultimate step to protect others.

Times and technology have changed the more modern version of Hong Kong, but I have no confidence that these latest shenanigans will calm the nerves of the majority. Of course many will be looking to escape if they can, and should be given every assistance by other nations.

IG

Last edited by Imagegear; 10th Jul 2020 at 07:51.
Imagegear is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2020, 09:47
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: South Korea
Age: 59
Posts: 119
I have lived and worked in foreign countries for the best part of my career, mainly in Asia, including a few years in China but also in North America. While working on sites in central China I could go for months and never see another Western person. I loved it, great, friendly, smart, people and very interesting culture. I spent lots of time talking about political issues and key political events with my Chinese colleagues and I can start to understand the different interpretations of these events. Sure, in China there are sedition laws etc and you are not allowed to criticise the government. This is something Chinese people are used to and they live with it. Just like US people live with gun violence. I know Chinese people who have criticised the government and the police are not heavy handed. Maybe they get a talking to and provided they are apologetic it’s not an issue. I know US people will not understand this. I also had a great time in the US. When I first went to the US many years ago an elderly black lady was extremely hospitable and went out of her way to help me navigate Los Angeles. I also spent time in Taiwan.

These countries have different cultures. They have different importance’s. There are good points and bad points. Overall, they balance out. If you weigh up the good and the bad there is not much difference. Sure, in China the internet access is a bit of a hassle, but you can roam the streets late at night with no worries. In the US the internet is great but one must be careful roaming the streets at night. Chinese people don’t think much about the internet because they are used to it. People from the US don’t think too much about street safety at night because they are used to it. People are adaptable. Most Chinese people are proud of being Chinese. Most US people are proud of being US. I have an American friend who wanted to visit China. I asked him why he wanted to visit China. He said with a smile on his face “Because China is crazy.” I have a Chinese friend who wants to visit New York. I asked her why she wants to visit New York. With a smile on her face she said “Because New York is crazy”.

I don’t particularly agree with the new laws in Hong Kong but as usual anything Chinese is blown out of proportion by the US because China threatens US hegemony. Yes, people’s lives in Hongkong will change. I can understand why they don’t want these changes. Hongkong people have adapted to the Western culture. I can feel their pain. However, is this much different to the changes the native American people have to go through. I am not saying I agree or disagree with any of this or that it is good or bad. A good way to improve these situations is to gain some understanding. I’m just trying to pass on another side of the story and you can listen if you wish. Cheers

Cool Guys is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2020, 10:22
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Not where I want to be
Age: 67
Posts: 257
Cool guys. Too true, my experience exactly.
Per
Ancient Mariner is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2020, 13:41
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: surfing, watching for sharks
Posts: 3,732
A whole lot of shoulder shrugging when dealing with someone else’s freedoms.
West Coast is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2020, 14:58
  #55 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 11,317
A whole lot of shoulder shrugging when dealing with someone else’s freedoms.
The usual facile excuse for condoning either totalitarianism or barbarity elsewhere in the world - "they're not like us".
ORAC is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2020, 15:11
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5,120
Personally thinking: Should my government lift my country from being one of the most backward and poverty stricken states in the World to be the 3rd largest economy in only forty years I would be very pleased with it.
Fareastdriver is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2020, 15:21
  #57 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 11,317
Personally thinking: Should my government lift my country from being one of the most backward and poverty stricken states in the World to be the 3rd largest economy in only forty years I would be very pleased with it.
You mean the one that kept them there for the previous 40 which included the "cultural revolution" which killed up to 20 million people? And which is currently committing genocide amongst the Uighur?
ORAC is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2020, 18:54
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5,120
If I was an ordinary Chinese citizen I would know about it and if I did i wouldn't care a damn.

That's not accusing the Chinese of being racialist but a feature of their culture is that if things are going their way than they do not care about anything else.
Fareastdriver is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2020, 19:00
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Not where I want to be
Age: 67
Posts: 257
Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
You mean the one that kept them there for the previous 40 which included the "cultural revolution" which killed up to 20 million people? And which is currently committing genocide amongst the Uighur?
Not that it matters one way or the other, but when I asked a very good Chinese friend of mine, who lived through the cultural revolution, what his view was, he shrugged his shoulders and said: "That only lasted a few years, we Chinese have thousands of years of history, the Cultural Revolution was just a blip on the radar". His words, not mine, but years working in China left that general impression.
Per
Ancient Mariner is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2020, 20:08
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: surfing, watching for sharks
Posts: 3,732
Take away the freedoms the average middle income strata enjoy in China now and that ambivalence will met away quickly.
West Coast is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.