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Not bad for a 14 year old

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Not bad for a 14 year old

Old 30th Jun 2020, 00:07
  #21 (permalink)  
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My 635 had white line recognition. I played with it a few times and forgot about it. One late, late night, on a road I'd driven a zillion times, I got a stick-shake. I'll never know if I was losing concentration due to tiredness but I suspect it was the first stages. The good thing was it could recognise well worn lines.

Tiredness used to be a defence in law. Very much the opposite nowadays. Electric kit good. Missing something bloody obvious after 64 years, bad.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 05:17
  #22 (permalink)  
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Back in March I drove a Vauxhall Insignia which had lane recognition, a fact I didn't know. On an quiet stretch of the A3 I was gently drifting back from the middle lane to the left having neglected to use the indicator and wondered why the steering wheel was nudging right! Thought I'd got a flat tyre!
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 09:58
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not a fan of gadgets in cars for the same reason automation in airliners - unless properly trained in its use, properly used and ignored from time to time - it de-skills drivers.

I was a passenger in a Volvo once which had all the gizmos, including a readout of the speed limi in force slap bang in the middle of the dashboard. Which the driver ingored for most of the short trip. Hey ho.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 10:49
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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"For what it itís worth I,for one, place more store in the opinion of someone who has actually experienced using technology than that of someone who displays, on appearances, a Luddite like aversion."
Avoiding the obvious response, I wonder how I can have managed to survive, unscathed, for so many years behind the wheel, without rushing into the latest 'boys' toys' marketed for the gullible. It could be just 60+ years of good luck denied to me in other aspects of life, or possibly a recognition that, once behind the wheel, I, and I alone, am responsible for my own safety and those travelling with me or sharing my driving space. Having started with mandatory hand signals, the progression to indicators was accepted with enthusiasm, until the 'brain-dead' idiocy of other road users' failure to use them, pointed out the obvious deficiency of 'technology'. Having long passed my teen years, I assumed responsibility for my own actions, decisions and judgements and, particularly in today's digital environment, claims, of whatever sort, "on-line" should, I feel, be viewed with the utmost caution. Your enthusiasms are, obviously different. There are, on this forum as well as elsewhere, available statistics on the possible lack of validity of claims made for goods and services - such caveats are worth noting!
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 11:13
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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The point is really about the continuous development of vehicles to make them safer. This has been going on for more than 100 years, and isn't something new, or radical. A car made around 1920 at best may have had mechanically operated brakes operating only on the rear wheels, or, perhaps, just a mechanical band brake working on the transmission shaft. Just the evolution of braking systems shows the steady progress of technology reducing the workload and degree of skill needed by the driver in order to drive safely.

Mechanical band brakes evolved into mechanical rod-linkage drum brakes, then self-equalising cable operated drum brakes, then self-equalising hydraulically operated drum brakes, disc brakes, then servo assistance, followed by anti-lock braking systems. Now we just have another layer of assistance, in the form of automatic emergency braking and automatic parking brake application.

Much the same development cycle has happened with steering systems, lighting, transmission systems, even the technology incorporated into automotive glass and mirrors. With every new development cars have got safer, and we've been at the stage where the driver's failings are the weakest link in the safety chain for years now. Almost all accidents are the result of driver error, and much as people may want to believe that they are infallible, and will never make an error when driving, the evidence strongly shows this to be a false assumption. The fact that the cars with the best safety records happen to also be the cars with the best automated safety systems pretty much proves that adding automated safety features makes cars (and drivers) safer.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 12:42
  #26 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Loose rivets View Post
My 635 had white line recognition. I played with it a few times and forgot about it. One late, late night, on a road I'd driven a zillion times, I got a stick-shake. I'll never know if I was losing concentration due to tiredness but I suspect it was the first stages. The good thing was it could recognise well worn lines.

Tiredness used to be a defence in law. Very much the opposite nowadays. Electric kit good. Missing something bloody obvious after 64 years, bad.
My dashcam has it, sounds a warning like a gun being cocked as you drift out of the lane, also warns of collision risk, lights change warning as vehicle in front moves off

plus the usual
  • RED LIGHT WARNING SYSTEM
  • SPEED CAMERA WARNING SYSTEM
  • RED LIGHT & SPEED CAMERA WARNING SYSTEM
  • AVERAGE SPEED WARNING SYSTEM
  • MOBILE ZONE WARNING SYSTEM
  • ROAD SAFETY WARNING SYSTEM
This is what I have fitted, front and optional rear

https://thinkwaredashcam.store/produ...dash-cam-q800/
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 12:50
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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I've driven a few models with white line recognition. Each one has found itself getting confused over sunlight reflecting off polished surfaces after a rain shower. The most disturbing one I drove was a Focus with a habit of putting in a steer command if it detected the vehicle was crossing a white line. Easy to overcome it was nevertheless the point, for me, of a driving aid becoming a driving hindrance.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 13:16
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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The point is really about the continuous development of vehicles to make them safer.
Combining material/mechanical/engineering improvement with driver distracting gadgets is unhelpful in considering motoring safety improvement. Of course, disc brakes are preferable to (but not essential for) getting safely from A to B in a motor vehicle ; were it so, all our vintage and veteran cars would be banned. Likewise power steering is nice, but my tenure with an early Peugeot 205 merely improved my forearm muscle tone, it was no less safe than it's Citroen BX successor. In terms of vehicle 'improvements' there are some obvious candidates and a number which, not only do not contribute, but, indeed, make things worse (i.e. cruise control) ... wait for the howls over that!! Anything which 'intervenes' in the control loop between the driver and the vehicle, or, in any way distracts from continuous, uninterrupted concentration has to be disruptive and a potential hazard. Hands on the steering wheel, eyes on the road (ahead AND behind), control speed with the throttle pedal, is a reasonable starting recipe. Pratting about with the latest whizz-bang toy blathered over by the juveniles in Top Gear is a sure way to up the road toll!
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 13:20
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Almost all accidents are the result of driver error, and much as people may want to believe that they are infallible, and will never make an error when driving, the evidence strongly shows this to be a false assumption.
How about a periodic driver proficiency check (equivalent to the OPC for pilots), say, every five years, or every two years for drivers aged over 70? Sadly I suspect that any political party suggesting such a policy would never be elected into government.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 13:57
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Discorde View Post
How about a periodic driver proficiency check (equivalent to the OPC for pilots), say, every five years, or every two years for drivers aged over 70? Sadly I suspect that any political party suggesting such a policy would never be elected into government.
I've long felt that this would do far more to improve road safety than the MOT test for vehicles. Vehicle reliability and safety has improved massively since the MOT test was introduced way back in 1960. Back then, the sight of cars broken down with serious roadworthiness failures was commonplace, things like trunnions shearing on Morris Minors, or complete brake failure due to a fluid leak, were relatively commonplace. MOT failures for severe corrosion to structural parts of a car, or brake performance well below par, were commonplace for the first couple of decades that we had the MOT test, yet now I suspect that the majority of failures are things like emissions, wiper blades and maybe the odd defective light.

For the past ten or twenty years, may be longer, the most dangerous thing in any vehicle has been the driver. Inattention, incompetence or inebriation, seem to cause many accidents, and if vehicle safety systems can tackle some of these failings then that has to be a help, but it would be far better to have all drivers undergo some sort of periodic proficiency check. The problem with doing this seems to be one of having enough examiners, although realistically it's no greater requirement than that of having enough MOT test centres.

We already recognise that age affects driving competence, by requiring driving licences to be regularly renewed for those over 70. The fact that there's nothing more than a self-declaration to do this makes the whole exercise pretty pointless, though. One of the unfortunate facts with age-related degradation is that many of us remain convinced that our decades of experience more than makes up for slower reaction times and a reduced ability to make safe decisions rapidly. Nothing is guaranteed to make one realise this than getting behind the wheel of a reasonably high performance car and then finding out that it's more of a handful than one had thought it would be.

I'm not that old, but I know full well that I couldn't stay ahead of my car if I chose to utilise its full performance. Having driver assistance features, that reduce the overall driving workload, goes some way towards making my driving safer, I'm sure. Some of that is just greater confidence that comes from knowing that the car's systems are acting as a backstop to some extent, so if I have a momentary lapse of concentration, or get distracted, the car can warn me of things like deviations from the safest part of the road, or a pedestrian that's about to step off a pavement. TBH, I tend to now work at staying ahead of the car's sensors, as I hate the car spotting things before I have. In that respect it's probably improved my driving.

The other big safety improvement I've noticed has been getting rid of the plethora of switches, by having a car that has no dashboard or centre console switches, knobs, dials or whatever. This removes far more minor distractions in practicce than I would ever have thought. At first I didn't much like not having any switches or knobs to fiddle with, but now I'm very much a convert, both because it's far less distracting, but also because it's a lot easier to clean the dash and centre console without any switches, knobs or dials to get in the way. Mind you, my wife still hasn't got used to things like just telling the car to open the glovebox (like the inside of the doors, it has no handle to open the catch). . .
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 14:21
  #31 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
The other big safety improvement I've noticed has been getting rid of the plethora of switches, by having a car that has no dashboard or centre console switches, knobs, dials or whatever. This removes far more minor distractions in practice than I would ever have thought. At first I didn't much like not having any switches or knobs to fiddle with, but now I'm very much a convert, both because it's far less distracting, but also because it's a lot easier to clean the dash and centre console without any switches, knobs or dials to get in the way. Mind you, my wife still hasn't got used to things like just telling the car to open the glovebox (like the inside of the doors, it has no handle to open the catch). . .

On the Merc I had for a couple of weeks I felt the opposite, having inadvertantly tapped on the screen to change something, I found the speedo display gone, replaced with something totally irrelevant and distracting, it was pulling my eyes off the road on a busy dual carriage way as one scrolled through menus and screens trying to correct my mistake. At least with a few knobs to twiddle you don't tend to have more than the bog standard gauging to look at, the best of the later screen types in my eyes is the Audi TT MK3 as it combines both conventional knobs and a screen (main instrument binnacle straight in front of your eyes) that can combine the GPS etc.

It amazes me that they legislate to remove people using phones when driving, but then allow a myriad of infotainment to be accessed as you drive along, often from various screens..... where is the logic in that?

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Old 30th Jun 2020, 14:35
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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How about a periodic driver proficiency check (equivalent to the OPC for pilots), say, every five years, or every two years for drivers aged over 70?
Prequently mooted but, sadly, failing to note that driving tests are a means of allowing drivers to proceed unsupervised thereafter - test day, good ... thereafter?
Simplistic 'solutions' may seem like a good idea at first glance, they rarely stand the test of practical experience.
Why don't we try a really novel idea ? Teach people to drive properly in the first place? Do we not? ... of course not! We teach people to pass the TEST! The TEST is mostly irrelevant to competent driving even if we ignore the stupidity of lack of motorway and night driving. Watch those who share the roads with you and judge how many are fully aware, alert and respopnsive to other road users, wheeled and otherwise. A retest of the present system would simply endorse the current rubbish standards.

At first I didn't much like not having any switches or knobs to fiddle with, but now I'm very much a convert,
I must admit I find it extremely irritating when other drivers fail to operate their indicators but I would have pinned it on BMW , Range Rover oiks etc rather than the mor recently arrived electric brigade.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 14:43
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
On the Merc I had for a couple of weeks I felt the opposite, having inadvertantly tapped on the screen to change something, I found the speedo display gone, replaced with something totally irrelevant and distracting, it was pulling my eyes off the road on a busy dual carriage way as one scrolled through menus and screens trying to correct my mistake. At least with a few knobs to twiddle you don't tend to have more than the bog standard gauging to look at, the best of the later screen types in my eyes is the Audi TT MK3 as it combines both conventional knobs and a screen (main instrument binnacle straight in front of your eyes) that can combine the GPS etc.

It amazes me that they legislate to remove people using phones when driving, but then allow a myriad of infotainment to be accessed as you drive along, often from various screens..... where is the logic in that?
I rarely, if ever, touch the screen when driving. Pretty much everything I need to do can either be done by voice control or from the scroll wheels on the steering wheel. The screen configuration is pretty much fixed when driving, with the ~1/3rd right hand side showing the speed, warnings and situational awareness map from the sensors and the left hand side showing the moving map all the time. The infotainment stuff is just a bar at the bottom of the screen that gives the usual stuff, like radio station, music track, artist etc.

The most common reasons for me fiddling with dash controls/screens whilst driving in other cars has been selecting music, radio stations, etc or adjusting the heating/aircon. Both seem to work fine with just voice control, and, now I've got used to it, I find this pretty intuitive. Mind you, it was pretty crap when I first got the car, but there was a major over-the-air software update before Christmas that transformed the way that it works. The car understands pretty simple stuff, too, just telling it you're too hot will reduce the temperature, for example, so there's no need to remember specific commands. The same goes for playing music, switching the radio channel, making or receiving phone calls or navigating somewhere. The main irritation I find is that the cruise control defaults to the speed limit when selected, although it's adaptive, and slows down for bends or when approaching other cars. It's just annoying that it pretty much always has to be wound down using a scroll wheel as soon as it's engaged, rather than just starting out by assuming the current speed should be the set speed. Autopilot does the same, so often needs to similarly be wound down as soon as it's engaged. With a bit of luck this may get improved in a future software update.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 15:03
  #34 (permalink)  
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Prequently mooted but, sadly, failing to note that driving tests are a means of allowing drivers to proceed unsupervised thereafter - test day, good ... thereafter?
Simplistic 'solutions' may seem like a good idea at first glance, they rarely stand the test of practical experience.
Why don't we try a really novel idea ? Teach people to drive properly in the first place? Do we not? ... of course not! We teach people to pass the TEST! The TEST is mostly irrelevant to competent driving even if we ignore the stupidity of lack of motorway and night driving. Watch those who share the roads with you and judge how many are fully aware, alert and respopnsive to other road users, wheeled and otherwise. A retest of the present system would simply endorse the current rubbish standards.
I was taught by the RAF, the first thing you had to do before you even went out on the road was to sit a multi question paper ( 30 I think ) on the highway code and the pass mark was 100%
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 15:03
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Voice control, what happens when while chatting someone says, "I think I have a cold." does the heating come on?
All these features could lull drivers into a false sense of security and erode basic driving skills. Children of the Magenta line etc?
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 15:17
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hiflymk3 View Post
Voice control, what happens when while chatting someone says, "I think I have a cold." does the heating come on?
All these features could lull drivers into a false sense of security and erode basic driving skills. Children of the Magenta line etc?
The mic is muted unless the right steering wheel scroll wheel is pushed. In practice, the driver assistance stuff seems to do precisely the opposite of eroding driver skills. I find that I'm far more aware of what's going on outside than I used to be, largely because I try and beat the car's sensors at their own game (not easy, the damned thing can see in the dark, as well as all the blind spots). Having the car pick you up for poor lane discipline, or failing to anticipate the actions of something in front, is a bit like having an instructor in the car at times.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 21:04
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Having the car pick you up for poor lane discipline, or failing to anticipate the actions of something in front, is a bit like having an instructor in the car at times.
Should we understand from that, that your driving standards require such 'picking up'.? Perhaps all these gizmos are necessary after all.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 21:37
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
My dashcam has it, sounds a warning like a gun being cocked as you drift out of the lane, also warns of collision risk, lights change warning as vehicle in front moves off

plus the usual
  • RED LIGHT WARNING SYSTEM
  • SPEED CAMERA WARNING SYSTEM
  • RED LIGHT & SPEED CAMERA WARNING SYSTEM
  • AVERAGE SPEED WARNING SYSTEM
  • MOBILE ZONE WARNING SYSTEM
  • ROAD SAFETY WARNING SYSTEM
This is what I have fitted, front and optional rear

https://thinkwaredashcam.store/produ...dash-cam-q800/
or you could just keep your eyes open while driving
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 21:39
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
I rarely, if ever, touch the screen when driving. Pretty much everything I need to do can either be done by voice control or from the scroll wheels on the steering wheel. The screen configuration is pretty much fixed when driving, with the ~1/3rd right hand side showing the speed, warnings and situational awareness map from the sensors and the left hand side showing the moving map all the time. The infotainment stuff is just a bar at the bottom of the screen that gives the usual stuff, like radio station, music track, artist etc.

The most common reasons for me fiddling with dash controls/screens whilst driving in other cars has been selecting music, radio stations, etc or adjusting the heating/aircon. Both seem to work fine with just voice control, and, now I've got used to it, I find this pretty intuitive. Mind you, it was pretty crap when I first got the car, but there was a major over-the-air software update before Christmas that transformed the way that it works. The car understands pretty simple stuff, too, just telling it you're too hot will reduce the temperature, for example, so there's no need to remember specific commands. The same goes for playing music, switching the radio channel, making or receiving phone calls or navigating somewhere. The main irritation I find is that the cruise control defaults to the speed limit when selected, although it's adaptive, and slows down for bends or when approaching other cars. It's just annoying that it pretty much always has to be wound down using a scroll wheel as soon as it's engaged, rather than just starting out by assuming the current speed should be the set speed. Autopilot does the same, so often needs to similarly be wound down as soon as it's engaged. With a bit of luck this may get improved in a future software update.
Are there any shortcomings with your Tesla, or is it just perfect at absolutely everything? Itís painful reading it, you just bore on about your bloody Tesla.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 21:58
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
My dashcam has it, sounds a warning like a gun being cocked as you drift out of the lane, also warns of collision risk, lights change warning as vehicle in front moves off

plus the usual
  • RED LIGHT WARNING SYSTEM
  • SPEED CAMERA WARNING SYSTEM
  • RED LIGHT & SPEED CAMERA WARNING SYSTEM
  • AVERAGE SPEED WARNING SYSTEM
  • MOBILE ZONE WARNING SYSTEM
  • ROAD SAFETY WARNING SYSTEM
This is what I have fitted, front and optional rear

https://thinkwaredashcam.store/produ...dash-cam-q800/
I have a wife.
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