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US Politics Hamsterwheel V3.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel V3.0

Old 8th Jun 2020, 19:34
  #501 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Winemaker View Post
Oh come on ob, you know that's not what's being proposed.
You can call it "sarcastic" if you prefer, Winemaker. I prefer "hyperbole to make a point".

The point being that the "defund the police" movement is simply looking at this as an opportunity not to be wasted, to fund the neverending programs of social reorganization and government control over every aspect of our lives.

What will they use the police budget money for? Well, already they are on about "community organizing", "lifting people from poverty", "solving the drug issues", and "taking care of our less advantaged citizens". Well we have been parroting this rubbish for the last 60 years with little to show for it. Except that we have built huge government bureaucracies to "study and report on" the issues, with thousands of well paid employees soaking up the budgets that should have gone to the people they purported to help.

Failure to address the underlying cultural and social dysfunction has put us in this situation. Another massive infusion of taxpayer funding will not change things in anyone's hearts and minds.

And yes, I'm all for cutting the police's pseudo-military equipment budget. When you send a cop out in full Kevlar in an armored car, you don't project police professionalism. If you need that, call in the National Guard. They are, well, military.
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Old 8th Jun 2020, 19:58
  #502 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
After reading up on the actual concept of "defund the police", it's about more than just removing money from police departments, despite the simplistic slogan. What it does entail is a refocus from an aggressive criminal justice system that prioritises militarised police and ever increasing custodial sentences even for non violent crimes to more focus on social and welfare improvement to minimise crime.
As your credibility is low, could you offer a few links to the core principles that you are referring to? Whose vision of this sound byte "defund the police" are you referring to? (And if what you described is what they are after, then they named it rather badly, packaging wise).
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Old 8th Jun 2020, 20:02
  #503 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATSA1 View Post
So I guess I have lost this argument!
There was no agrument in evidence.
I will survive, but will the United States of America?
If you are betting Vegas, take the over.
We went through some hard, chaotic and violent times in the 60's and 70's that are similar to this.
Still here.
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Old 8th Jun 2020, 20:05
  #504 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Winemaker View Post
Oh come on ob, you know that's not what's being proposed.
Having lived through the 60's and 70's, where the excuse that "crime is caused by poverty, society is to blame" was a long running meme, OB's not that far off. I do think a bit of hyperbole is present. There are already community engagement community policing initiatives in major cities all over the country. If they get more funding and more emphasis, who knows what might change?

For TurbineD:
The second of Mike's criterion is rarely resorted to, particularly by the participants on this sub forum board.
Mike's first point was reasonably well made.
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Old 8th Jun 2020, 20:19
  #505 (permalink)  
 
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For OB and his friends who still ask what defunding the police means, do a little research on what happened in Camden, NJ when they actally defunded the police in 2013
https://www.governing.com/topics/pub...epartment.html.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ice-department
https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/
https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/0...t-does-it-mean
https://www.examiner.org/when-protes...-does-it-mean/
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Old 8th Jun 2020, 20:30
  #506 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Revnetwork View Post
For OB and his friends who still ask what defunding the police means, do a little research on what happened in Camden, NJ when they actally defunded the police in 2013
https://www.governing.com/topics/pub...epartment.html.
I see a lovely piece of union busting at the first link: was Frank Lorenzo involved?
The Camden County Police Department rehired most of the laid-off cops, along with nearly 100 other officers, but at much lower salaries and with fewer benefits than they had received from the city.
Interesting article, thanks.
With those savings, the department, which has since unionized, hired scores of new officers while keeping overall costs about the same.
(From your fourth link)
Sen. Cory Booker said he understands the sentiment behind the slogan, but it's not a slogan he will use.

The New Jersey Democrat told NBC's “Meet the Press” that he shares a feeling with many protesters that Americans are “over-policed” and that “we are investing in police, which is not solving problems, but making them worse when we should be, in a more compassionate country, in a more loving country.”
He used to be mayor of Newark. (Which was a troubled city when he took over).
Branding 101: get it right, or the message may get lost.
From your last link. (Which repeated some of the other material ...
“Cutting the LAPD budget means longer responses to 911 emergency calls, officers calling for back-up won’t get it, and rape, murder and assault investigations won’t occur or will take forever to initiate, let alone complete,” the union’s board said in a statement last week.“At this time, with violent crime increasing, a global pandemic and nearly a week’s worth of violence, arson, and looting, ‘defunding’ the LAPD is the most irresponsible thing anyone can propose.”
If the city is willing to take that risk, then they'll take it.

Here's an article on how Camden's Crime stats compare from 2010 through 2019. FWIW.
Progress was made, though what other factors were involved isn't clear in the article. But look at what's going on.
There were actually more cops, not fewer cops. The Chief presents the results as a change in style.
“As far as the change that has taken place, the number one difference is resources,” Camden County Police Chief Joe Wysocki told TAPinto Camden. “Cops count and police matter, so by almost doubling the amount of officers on the street that has given us a much larger footprint to focus on community engagement and creating a dialogue with residents that has been missing for decades in the city.”
If you can pull that off: more cops for less money ... mayors and city managers all over the nation will be interested in what you did and how you did it.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 8th Jun 2020 at 21:11.
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Old 8th Jun 2020, 23:20
  #507 (permalink)  
 
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I understand, RevNet, that you often feel the need to educate those deplorables here who are too stupid to understand what they need, but..
I'm well aware of what "defunding" the police departments really means, despite the catchy phraseology.

But as is so often the case, the devil is in the details, and the ulterior motives are completely different from what is advertised. In the Minneapolis situation, for instance, what the City Council really wants is to get rid of the police department. They actually said so. Now that doesn't mean there'll be no law enforcement personnel. On the contrary, state law requires the Sheriff of Hennepin County to assume the law enforcing role. So the next day, he'd have to hire back all those officers who lost their job when MPD ceased operations. Same guys. Only now the taxpayers of the whole county, largely suburban, get to foot the bill for Minneapolis's poorly run Democrat Police Department.

I'm sure they will be trying this out here in Seattle, too. Then the civil disagreements will really ramp up.
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Old 8th Jun 2020, 23:55
  #508 (permalink)  
 
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Regardless of what obgraham, might say:

Here is reality and what I see:

We are seeing a passing of the torch from one generation to the next in the United States and in fact, the World. The passing of the torch is never pleasant, smooth or without controversy and so it is now. What the receivers of the torch see and feel is the passers of the torch failed in many respects, some of which the receivers feel to be important on their lists of priorities. The passers of the torch dismiss the receivers priorities as not being important on their current lists of priorities and don’t believe they have failed at much of anything. And so it is, passers and receivers. But, be assured, the days of the passers are nearing the end of their trail of life, don’t kid yourself otherwise when you turn 80 years old, the receivers are just now beginning their most influential phase of their lives. It is known best as reality.

As in the Kenny Roger’s song, “Know when to hold them and know when to fold them,” Our generation needs to know it is time to start folding them, the receiving generation needs to hold their cards with both hands and do better than our generation did, for all, and I think they will do better…

Perhaps obgraham, and others as passers ought to expand their vision to a larger landscape, their front yard don't represent the front yards of the United States of America going forward beyond their generation...
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Old 8th Jun 2020, 23:59
  #509 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
As your credibility is low, could you offer a few links to the core principles that you are referring to? Whose vision of this sound byte "defund the police" are you referring to? (And if what you described is what they are after, then they named it rather badly, packaging wise).
I hate to dish out lessons in civility, but don’t insult people then expect them to answer your question (even though I answered your question fully with the links in post #529)
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 01:03
  #510 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
I hate to dish out lessons in civility, but don’t insult people then expect them to answer your question (even though I answered your question fully with the links in post #529)
Until you quit your trash talk, I'll be happy to rub your hypocrisy in your face for claiming any right to be some guardian of civility.

I have bothered to check out your poison tongue on other sub forums here on PPRuNe.
Originally Posted by wtsmg
.No comment on this from the usual suspects. Colour me surprised.
And by your works you shall know them.
Typical troll post. Perhaps you have discovered that if you don't engage in good faith, folks will stop wasting time with you. Raise your game. Does it occur to you that nobody would disagree with the idea that slashing someone's tires isn't right?

Back on topic: I never thought I'd see the day where the Democrats would become energetic union busters. I guess the world changes.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 01:13
  #511 (permalink)  
 
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Actually, Turbine, though I am only slightly behind you in the steady march toward demise and oblivion, I see things a bit differently.

It is not my responsibility to pass the torch. In fact each day I am happier no longer to be considered "in charge" of anything. It is up to the next gens to forge their own torch. I get to sit back and offer sage advice, which in the long history of humankind is seldom accepted. In response, I can simply point out that I am glad I will not have to live in the world they are creating.

As it is for everyone, and always has been. This is why history inevitably repeats itself.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 02:18
  #512 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
Until you quit your trash talk, I'll be happy to rub your hypocrisy in your face for claiming any right to be some guardian of civility.
“Trash talk”. Actually feel proud of that

Anyway I posted some links in post #529 regarding poor criminal justice outcomes in the US despite a larger prison population, more militarised police, a tough on drugs stance etc If anyone wants to discuss those points, go ahead...
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 03:18
  #513 (permalink)  
 
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Yup, not perfect. Funny enough, looks like Oz is following suit with the militarization of the police. Continue on about the US however.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 03:50
  #514 (permalink)  
 
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Compton, California did something similar a while back.
Anyone have any better info on how that went?

Briefly from the net:
According to the most recent data from the FBI, the total crime rate in Compton is 3,817.9 per 100,000 people. That's 48.65% higher than the national rate of 2,568.4 per 100,000 people and 35.01% higher than the California total crime rate of 2,827.8 per 100,000 people.
The city violent crime rate for Compton in 2016 was higher than the national violent crime rate average by 187.61% and the city property crime rate in Compton was higher than the national property crime rate average but only by 4.34%.

Are Camden and Compton nicer places to live after these initiative?
Until now there doesn't have seemed to be any massive desire to copy them.

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Old 9th Jun 2020, 04:31
  #515 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by meadowrun View Post
Compton, California did something similar a while back.
Anyone have any better info on how that went?

Briefly from the net:
According to the most recent data from the FBI, the total crime rate in Compton is 3,817.9 per 100,000 people. That's 48.65% higher than the national rate of 2,568.4 per 100,000 people and 35.01% higher than the California total crime rate of 2,827.8 per 100,000 people.
The city violent crime rate for Compton in 2016 was higher than the national violent crime rate average by 187.61% and the city property crime rate in Compton was higher than the national property crime rate average but only by 4.34%.

Are Camden and Compton nicer places to live after these initiative?
Until now there doesn't have seemed to be any massive desire to copy them.
Compton is the essence of just turn your back, let them do what they do.
You really want to see black on black violence, that and the surrounding areas of South LA are the places to be.
Absolutely amazed me that opposing gang members, their families, neighbors, friends fully understand that any number of them will be killed, violently, by opposing gang members, and don’t care, because their gang is their family, defend to the death.
i have said before, I went down there at the invitation of a black friend who was born in Watts, somehow managed to get an education and didn’t succumb to the lifestyle.
Anyway, I kept asking him what it was really like, finally he said, ok you want to see, this Saturday night.
Off we go. That was the night I saw two young kids running down the street, one each side, shooting at each other, no thought of who else they may hit.
Must have been 20 or so folk watching, all knew which gangs they were from and their street names.

Police show up five or so minutes later, not one person standing on that street knew anything about anybody shooting anything, just thought they heard guns going off.
My friend and I were useless, yes, two kids, dark clothing, white sneakers, age, probably below 20, skin color, black, height, maybe 5 1/2 ft, went from there that way, how many shots, a lot, either of them wounded, no idea.
Thats what the police deal with, 24/7/365, no let up.

Yet nobody protests for those folks.

This is just a personal opinion, the police know who most of the gang members are, the areas they operate in, drugs, weapons, prostitution rings they run, so why don’t they just surround the area, start at one end, sweep through and pick up all the gang members?
i think one of the reasons is that as long as the violence and killing remains within the gangs, it’s more effective and cost effective than keep having to fight the same battles over and over again, if crap is going to happen, as long as it stays in the bowl, that’s ok.
Another reason is that the community has become very adept at crying minority/racism/police brutality, they have found that it works well.

Your experience may vary.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 05:51
  #516 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fltlt View Post
This is just a personal opinion, the police know who most of the gang members are, the areas they operate in, drugs, weapons, prostitution rings they run, so why don’t they just surround the area, start at one end, sweep through and pick up all the gang members?
i think one of the reasons is that as long as the violence and killing remains within the gangs, it’s more effective and cost effective than keep having to fight the same battles over and over again, if crap is going to happen, as long as it stays in the bowl, that’s ok.
Another reason is that the community has become very adept at crying minority/racism/police brutality, they have found that it works well.

Your experience may vary.
Very interesting personal opinion which you are quite entitled to. My personal opinion which I stated back in a previous post is that if the killings were "white on white" the police would have long done something about it and cleaned up the neighbourhood. Your other reason about the black community crying racism and police brutality is correct because thats what the police usually do when they go into these neighbourhoods.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 06:00
  #517 (permalink)  
 
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Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics

Originally Posted by meadowrun View Post
Compton, California did something similar a while back.
Anyone have any better info on how that went?

Briefly from the net:
According to the most recent data from the FBI, the total crime rate in Compton is 3,817.9 per 100,000 people. That's 48.65% higher than the national rate of 2,568.4 per 100,000 people and 35.01% higher than the California total crime rate of 2,827.8 per 100,000 people.
The city violent crime rate for Compton in 2016 was higher than the national violent crime rate average by 187.61% and the city property crime rate in Compton was higher than the national property crime rate average but only by 4.34%.

Are Camden and Compton nicer places to live after these initiative?
Until now there doesn't have seemed to be any massive desire to copy them.
Very nice quoting the Camden NJ figures compared to the National average. It probably still remains higher than the National average but when you consider where it was back in 2013, then a lot of positive progress has been made. Read the article from one of the links I posted earlier
https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/...camden/549542/
When Camden, New Jersey’s Chief of Police J. Scott Thomson joined the Camden police force as an officer 25 years ago, there were 175 open-air drug markets lining just nine square miles of streets. The murder rates in this cityof 75,000 just across the Delaware River from Philadelphia regularly climbed to more than six times the national average. “Criminals operated with impunity,” Thomson said.

After a particularly deadly year in 1995, Camden’s Cathedral of Immaculate Conception began illuminating one candle for each homicide victim. In 2012, the year ended with 67 candles—a rate of about 87 murders per 100,000 residents, which ranked Camden fifth nationwide.
But on New Year’s 2018, just 22 candles were lit: The city’s murder rate fell to its lowest since 1987. The number of annual killings has been in decline since 2012; so have robberies, aggravated assaults, violent crimes, property crimes, and non-fatal shooting incidents.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 09:47
  #518 (permalink)  
 
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Very thoughtful video from the usaf pacific air forces commander

Have a look
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/gene...n-racism-video
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 13:31
  #519 (permalink)  
 
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Why is it that Middle America seems to have such a problem with any 'Socialist' policies?

Is it a mistaken belief that even half a step to the left is a slippery slope towards Communism? Still worried about 'Reds under the bed'?

Why does it seem so politically unacceptable to have policies that look after people of all economic levels and colours rather than just the wealthy white folk?

Why does the black community have the highest levels of lone-parent families and the highest number of young men growing up without real father figures? This is true of the UK too but at 19% instead of the current 65% in the US. How can this not be a contributory factor to the high crime rate and subsequent prison population amongst black people.

As one of those 'foreign twits' OB and one who thinks your country is a beautiful place, help me understand why, after all the race riots of the 60's, you are no further on in 60 years.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 13:46
  #520 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by meadowrun View Post
Compton, California did something similar a while back.
Are Camden and Compton nicer places to live after these initiative?
Until now there doesn't have seemed to be any massive desire to copy them.
But did Compton improve based on previous years? If they did, that's a step in the right direction, right?
Whether or not Camden (or Compton) is a garden spot isn't the short term goal. The tabulation I linked to showed stats from 2010 to 2019. (Which is only part of the story). The story seems to be "getting better, improving, still much work to do."
There's still crime, with a variety of root causes.
As a point of reference, a bit over 30 years ago one of the most dangerous urban areas in the nation was Southeast Washington DC. They had the honor of leading the nation in per capita murder for a few years. That part of DC is where the US Navy Annex in Washington DC - more or less the Anacostia area. It isn't that way now, but it might be instructive to discover how that change took place over time.
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