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US Politics Hamsterwheel V3.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel V3.0

Old 27th Aug 2020, 10:56
  #2421 (permalink)  
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Across the country, protests in Oakland, California, were more chaotic Wednesday night as police said multiple fires were set, businesses vandalized and windows broken. The Oakland Police Department tweeted that 600 to 700 people took part in the protests and several were arrested. Calling them “violent protesters,” police say they vandalized and set a fire at the Alameda County Superior Court.

In Minneapolis, where three months ago George Floyd was killed as a police officer pressed his knee into Floyd's neck, unrest sparked violence and store looting that broke out downtown following what authorities said was misinformation about the suicide death of a Black homicide suspect. The Minneapolis mayor imposed a curfew Wednesday night and requested National Guard help.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 11:19
  #2422 (permalink)  
 
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America burns again. The President does nothing. God help America.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 11:28
  #2423 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by brokenagain View Post
Anyway, what is a 17 year old who doesn’t even live in that town let alone state doing parading around a town with a high powered rifle pretending to be some sort of soldier?
Committing a crime. Which will severely ruin his self defence case, if he chooses to pursue that avenue. Whoever gave him the gun will be looking at felony charges too. I’d say young Kyle, who will turn 18 next year, will be spending a considerable time in an adult prison for what happened last night.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 13:31
  #2424 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hiflymk3 View Post
America burns again. The President does nothing. God help America.
if you were president what would you do under the constitution?.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 14:39
  #2425 (permalink)  
 
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I know little of the US of A , and, from what I see and hear, have no wish to increase acquaintance. However, such understanding as I have suggests that the present ,and much of the recent past, problems stem from the less than equitable treatment of non-white citizens. It is demonstrably so in the UK also. The output from protagonists on both sides continues to demonstrate unwillingness to accept the need for quiet reasoning on the one hand and acknowledgement of the problem, on the other.
On today's Beeb 'News at One' there was an interview with John Ameache (sp?), an ex American sportsman (apparently). His totally lucid, unemotional exposition of the problems faced by himself and others and the quiet, powerful call for action was beyond exceptional. It ought to be required listening for anyone interested in the improvement of society at large and this area of contention in particular. His clarity of thought and quality of speech were exemplary and his pointing out to the interviewer that her question was 'specious' was a moment to be treasured.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 14:54
  #2426 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo View Post
if you were president what would you do under the constitution?.
Address the problem as to why there is so much racial division in his country might be a start.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 15:07
  #2427 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShotOne View Post
“...not to say the protesters are all friendly individuals”. Considering the “protester” you refer to was armed and perpetrating a violent attack that is an absurd understatement.
Shotone
The video I watched showed a 17 year old with an assault weapon wandering around the streets, and being given water by law enforcement officers, and then after some shots being fired, walking down the street with the rifle held high as if in surender. I did not see any protesters with Assault rifles unless they are a built in extra you can get on a skateboard of which I am unaware !!
Yes there are undoubtedly elements who will loot and exacerbate the situation, but this summer of violence over there is just getting worse rather than improving, and the current occupant of the White House is quite happy to play Nero as it fits with his narrative. They are in a real mess over there, and I truly am not sure how they are going to dig themselves out of it, but armed vigilantes are not the answer. The great US thing used to be having the knack of compromise, but they seem to have lost that along the way in the last few years.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 15:54
  #2428 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hiflymk3 View Post
Address the problem as to why there is so much racial division in his country might be a start.
Can you be more specific? What particular things should this President do? And why have no prior presidents managed this?
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 15:58
  #2429 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mac the Knife View Post
"People dumb enough to think that marching in the streets will accomplish their political goals are just that -- dumb."

So why is the right to peacefully assemble for redress codified in the Constitution?

Mac
Where did I say they have no "right" to demonstrate?
I was offering a simple opinion on the smartness of marching in the current touchy environment. There is a time and place to intelligently exercise one's "rights".

Similarly, when confronted by cops with un-holstered firearms, that is not a smart time to engage in confrontational behavior. Is it any different in your country?
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 16:22
  #2430 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hiflymk3 View Post
Address the problem as to why there is so much racial division in his country might be a start.
it's because people think of themselves as a race or creed rather than as citizens with equal rights. They create their own sphere of racial division because ttey want to .under freedom of expression.

This ain;t a history lesson, it's a hint for tomorrow.

We have laws of behavior and punishments where indicated. If the laws are wrong it's up to Congress to redress them. If they are not enforced, it's up to the locals to seek enforcement. So where is the president in all this.responsibility?
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 16:23
  #2431 (permalink)  
 
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It seems to me that there would be fewer protests if there were fewer unnecessary killings by the police. Perhaps change should start there.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 16:41
  #2432 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Where did I say they have no "right" to demonstrate?
I was offering a simple opinion on the smartness of marching in the current touchy environment. There is a time and place to intelligently exercise one's "rights".

Similarly, when confronted by cops with un-holstered firearms, that is not a smart time to engage in confrontational behavior. Is it any different in your country?
In the last Los Angeles riots of a couple of years ago, the Korean business owners stood in front, on top and in the street, armed, they had no problem letting all and sundry know that they weren’t playing.

The protestors/looters/n’ere do wells took the hint.
Police were grateful, why, because they don’t have the personnel/assets to chase the outbreaks all over the area.
Thats one reason protest organizers had to obtain a permit, and show they had the support services for the numbers expected, in addition this enabled police to plan manpower requirements in advance, both to keep the protest from getting out of hand, in addition to protecting the protesters should an opposing group appear.

These pop up protests are perfect breeding grounds for the opportunistic, if they ever figure out how to do it right, the thin blue line will fall, across the cities.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 16:48
  #2433 (permalink)  
 
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Indeed, fltlt, as I neglected to point out above: Mac the Knife even quoted the "right to peaceful assembly" from the First Amendment. But neglected it. There isn't much "peaceful" in a riotous mob. This has been adjudicated many times over the nation's history.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 17:05
  #2434 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Can you be more specific? What particular things should this President do? And why have no prior presidents managed this?
Ever considered those questions yourself, we'd like to know your take.
But I'll answer you.
The President should be presidential and at least attempt to unite the nation. Address the nation as one nation under the same flag etc. Tell both sides left and right, black and white to calm down for the sake of all Americans. You know, work together, that sort of thing.
Tell the American public that police training and methods need to be reviewed. (We all know what sparks off these riots don't we.)
Throw in a few sops to better education, better health care, they can always back out of that later.

Got to go but more later.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 17:31
  #2435 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Can you be more specific? What particular things should this President do? And why have no prior presidents managed this?
Perhaps quit saying things like:

"I can tell you I have the support of the police, the support of the military, the support of the Bikers for Trump. I have the tough people, but they don’t play it tough — until they go to a certain point, and then it would be very bad, very bad." - Donald Trump, March, 2019.

"Our nation is witnessing a merciless campaign to wipe out our history, defame our heroes, erase our values and indoctrinate our children." - Donald Trump, July 4, 2020.

"American heroes defeated the Nazis, dethroned the fascists, toppled the communists, saved American values, upheld American principles and chased down the terrorists to the very ends of the earth. We are now in the process of defeating the radical left, the Marxists, the anarchists, the agitators, the looters, and people who in many instances have absolutely no clue what they are doing." - Donald Trump, July 5, 2020.

When, from the Bully Pulpit of the presidency, you define fellow Americans as equivalent to foreigners (the "others") that we had to attack and kill and defeat in armed conflict, and use the language of warfare ("merciless campaign," "defeating," "chased down") to define the internal threat and the appropriate response, some people will take it literally. Words do have consequences.

This, of course, dates back at least to Sarah Palin and her praise of a "real" America, which presupposes some "unreal" America.

Which of course is nonsense. If one is an American citizen, one is a real American. Period. Regardless of whether one is also Muslim, Christian, Atheist, black, Antifa, socialist, Marxist, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Green, military or former military or never military, policeman, white supremacist, biker, or American Nazi. Or lives in a city, suburb, small town, or farmland.

But you will hear very few Republican politicians publicly and forcefully point that out these days. They are too dependent on Trump's good graces, and the votes of that small part of his base who do believe there is an actual internal war for America.

Keep that up, and it may come true. We've already got the pictures above, of real Americans facing off with guns pointed. And you, saying it should be expected.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 18:31
  #2436 (permalink)  
 
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Pattern, you are entitled to take what you wish from those Trump statements you quoted. However, I see nothing there that I consider "wrong". Maybe crude. Maybe something presidents should not say in public. Maybe ill timed. But not wrong.

Here's the problem I have with all this, in attempting to hang this issue on Trump:
It just doesn't work.
These issues were ongoing loooong before Trump.
I voted for a black guy in 2008, figuring "let's see if that way we can work over our differences". Zilch.
A President is not the moral arbiter of the people. But many people want him to be just that.

However, instead of working out policies that will alleviate the conditions of the downtrodden which of course are the underlying causes of this unrest, your side (I refer to politicians in both the executive and legislative branches) insists on supporting destructive behavior, encouraging a victim mentality, excusing personal irresponsibility, and tolerating an education system that refuses to educate. And after all that, you seem to think that merely speaking some encouraging words, weeping on demand, and showing up in places they really didn't want to be, will provide the way forward. In this regard, I strongly disagree.

Finally, after four years of constant attacking and denigrating the President, his wife, his family, and his voters, you now think the Conservative populace should just up and roll over and change to Liberal solutions.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 18:45
  #2437 (permalink)  
 
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Let me pose this question to the forumites: Yes the U.S. election does not occur for another 70 days or so but, knowing what you know at the moment, who do you think will win?

From my humble outside observe's viewpoint and reading Pattern's exhortation to think of this as a 50 state affair instead of a singular national one, it seems Trump will have it in the electoral college.

I was hoping Biden would be able to pip him, but the support, albeit a minority perhaps in the overall popular count, seems too strong where it counts.

I remain convinced that there is nothing, including hypotheticals such as treason and more virus deaths and brazen criminal action, that will budge his base--they dig what he is and in fact even the most unsavoury revelations are as catnip to his followers. His convention, although thin on actual and verifiable facts, seems to have solidified his standing.

Does anyone see anyway possible that Biden has even the slimmest chance?

If you were setting odds would it be 90-10 for Trump?
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 18:48
  #2438 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Where did I say they have no "right" to demonstrate?
I was offering a simple opinion on the smartness of marching in the current touchy environment. There is a time and place to intelligently exercise one's "rights".

Similarly, when confronted by cops with un-holstered firearms, that is not a smart time to engage in confrontational behavior. Is it any different in your country?
In my country, walking away unarmed is not considered confrontational. Each to his/her/its own.
Per
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 18:53
  #2439 (permalink)  
 
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This, of course, dates back at least to Sarah Palin and her praise of a "real" America, which presupposes some "unreal" America.
Don't try and claim the high ground, dems are equally guilty of sewing division. In Hillary's eyes, I'm a deplorable.

Cue TD to arrive with a cute response, however it doesn't change Hillary's belief in two Americas.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 19:05
  #2440 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner View Post
In my country, walking away unarmed is not considered confrontational. Each to his/her/its own.
Per
I'll remember that, Per, next time I'm in Norway. If the police pull me over, should I just high tail it down the road?
Or would it be best if I stopped and respectfully discussed what might be my offense?
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