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Black lives donít really matter London March.

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Black lives donít really matter London March.

Old 9th Jun 2020, 18:14
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
If the political will was there and the police were to employ those robust tactics they would be playing to the crowd, so to speak, the outcry about heavy handed tactics would be loud and voluble at the forefront of this forum and across the media, the government and police are stuck between a rock and a hard place over a minority, again, and unfortunately what the majority might accept as a suitable response does not cut any ice under the current situation, so they are stuck with doing the bare minimum to avoid upsetting the protesters and providing them with the very thing they are protesting about and if people think it is ugly now then just wait and see what would then happen in retaliation if those robust tactics were actually exercised.
There's also the hard option of lifting the culprits and fast tracking the court proceedings. A fine and criminal record might act as a deterrent especially if the offenders could lose their jobs (or future jobs) because of it. Even more mortifying for the younger transgressors would be the ensuing parental rage.
But let's have something pronto.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 18:34
  #182 (permalink)  
 
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Protesters mix up their Peels. Thick or thin skinned?

https://order-order.com/2020/06/09/p...ame-confusion/
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 18:52
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Protesters mix up their Peels. Thick or thin skinned?

https://order-order.com/2020/06/09/p...ame-confusion/
For some of them it could have been Emma.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 19:57
  #184 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
History is always being written - and rewritten.

Which is why so much effort is put by some regimes in erasing the remnants of the past they do not like so their historians can rewrite it as they wish it to be.

Nineteen Eighty Four and the Ministry of Truth come to mind.
ORAC, the second part of my original submission recognised these points. However, my contention that history is immutable stands.

Of course, no-one would deny that the events of history constantly are being "refashioned" in the many images suiting the purposes of whomever is viewing that history. But this does not, of itself, change the factual events of any historical episode and it is in that sense that I regard these as being absolute. Sadly, the facts of history have no place in the infantile workings of the mob's mind. But so what? The mob's purpose does not extend beyond creating general mayhem and insurrection; its pursuit of these is aided by the vacuum of leadership so lamentably evident at the moment.

Further aid is provided by the BBC in its so-called news coverage. This is not impartial reporting of current affairs but biased documentary. It is high time this once-venerable institution was brought to heel.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 19:59
  #185 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Protesters mix up their Peels. Thick or thin skinned?

https://order-order.com/2020/06/09/p...ame-confusion/
Thick, and skin don't enter into it.
Reminds one of the "unpersoning" movements in the early Soviet Union, 1920's and 1930's.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 20:14
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52977088

Robert Milligan: Slave trader statue removed from outside London museum
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 20:20
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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A fervent supporter of Empire it would seem - and an apologist for war crimes who performed a cover-up of what those on the left would insist were British concentration camps.......

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...cett-s-statue-


Will Sadiq Khan have to knock down Millicent Fawcett’s statue?
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 20:53
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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Oh, this gets better. My daughter who teaches at a secondary school has just received an email informing the staff that in the light of the George Floyd murder, the curriculum will be adjusted to reflect that Black Lives Matter.

Shouldnít we be bringing up our youth to understand egalitarianism and tolerance for ALL? Not singling out one specific group for laudation?
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 20:59
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
A fervent supporter of Empire it would seem - and an apologist for war crimes who performed a cover-up of what those on the left would insist were British concentration camps.......

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...cett-s-statue-


Will Sadiq Khan have to knock down Millicent Fawcettís statue?
I can't read the Spectator article but I am guessing you are referring to her trip to S. Africa to investigate allegations of cruelty in the camps. It probably will come as a shock to you but when I lived in S.Africa in the mid 70s I was surprised to read an article in which they found and interviewed a handful of old ladies who had lived though that. Been there and done it. They each agreed that life in the camps was initially horrible but, once things had settled down, life wasn't that bad after all. They were living in secure areas, relatively free from the ravages of the war and they were fed. Very much like the armed, protected Kampongs set up during the Malayan Emergency. Some didn't like those either but they were usually the Chinese agitators who were taking their crops/food etc from the original unarmed villages.
You, ORAC: are showing clear signs of clutching at straws!
And your guru Guido is suffering from the same demise.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 21:08
  #190 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52977088

Robert Milligan: Slave trader statue removed from outside London museum
'The Museum of London recognises that the monument is part of the ongoing problematic regime of white-washing history'
Are they allowed to use the term "white washing"? Doesn't that have racist connotations?
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 21:09
  #191 (permalink)  
 
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Can’t read the Spectator article or won’t? It’s in the Coffee Shop part if the site, so shouldn’t be behind a firewall. However I will indulge you with an extract....

....But while Fawcett is mostly celebrated today for the campaign for women’s suffrage, less well-known is her ardent support of the British Empire. Fawcett was such a fan of Empire, that in 1901 she was commissioned by the government to lead an investigation into British concentration camps in South Africa during the second Boer war, after high mortality rates and appalling conditions were reported there.

The camps had been created after the British began conducting a scorched earth policy during the war, which involved burning down villages, homes and crops to root out a guerrilla campaign. As a result tens of thousands of men, women and children were displaced and forcibly moved into the camps.

When she arrived, Fawcett thought the camps were deeply necessary for the war, and her eventual report said the commission had a ‘generally favourable’ view of them. She also suggested that many of the deaths were caused by the ‘unsanitary habits’ of the Boers. Around 28,000 Boers died in the camps.

But if the Boers were unfairly maligned by Fawcett, at least they were mentioned in her eventual report. When she returned to England, Fawcett said that she had investigated ‘every camp’ in the country. In fact, she failed to visit a single camp which held Black Africans, nor did her report address the conditions in which they were held. In total, an estimated 14,000 to 25,000 Africans are thought to have died in the camps that Fawcett ignored.

Fawcett didn’t have much thought for the participation of Black Africans in society after the war either. In 1899, she wrote that after the settlement of the war,

‘I hope we are too deeply pledged to the principle of equal privileges for all white races to abandon it.’

In short, Fawcett is exactly the kind of person you would expect Sadiq Khan’s statue-toppling commission to take aim at. Or perhaps the London mayor will suddenly understand the value of historical nuance when it comes to his own pet project…

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Old 9th Jun 2020, 21:19
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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Not normally a great fan of Priti Patel, but good on her with this speech yesterday:

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Old 9th Jun 2020, 21:32
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
It doesn't need very high water pressure to calm down and dissipate a mob, as many of them will just be people swept up in the heat of the moment
I see what you did there.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 21:47
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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Nothing like a bit of 'group think' to provide 'thoughtful, informed debate' on a subject of continuing as well as current importance.
The rocks are disturbed to allow the cream of British reasoned debate to rise to the surface. It encourages even those who, on occasion, would present themselves as reasoned, disinterested commentators on current events. Residing, normally, in the comfortable, untroubled world of privileged 'white'ness, they espouse 'remedies' for the actions of fellow citizens who are denied equivalent lifestyles. "Bring out the buffoon's water cannons" ... what's that? illegal ? - Oh, never mind that, it'll serve them jolly well right for having the cheek to expect fair treatment - we don't 'do' fair treatment in this country.
The 'under-rock' dwellers will retreat soon, only to re-emerge when some other example of State foulness is forced into their 'barely' conscious-ness, when, yet again, the cry will arise in the Land, "Flog 'em, hang 'em ... oh just do something nasty and painful so I can get back under my stone."
There are many obvious disadvantages of being old. One of the few advantages is experience. In this area under discussion, that experience is of a country with a majority of bigoted, hypocritical xenophobes with a totally unjustified self-regard based on a concocted 'illustrious past'.
The days when it was possible to promote a 'Blue Water' policy have long since gone. The little people who don't or won't understand this, will continue to express their billious, nasty little 'prescriptions as remedies'.
Finally, I note, with a mixture of alarm, despondency and resigned un-surprise , that 'our Leader' has favoured the BAME community with his wisdom via a video on 'The Voice' He is reported as stating, in respect of the Bristolian scrap metal removal that he will not allow 'desecration'. Given his much vaunted predilection for the 'Classics' one might have assumed competence with his native language. Were that so, it would be interesting to hear how he has managed to elevate a slave trader bronze into a sacred object. Perhaps Eton standards have slipped?
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Old 10th Jun 2020, 00:29
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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I see a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial.To replace those they are looking at removing.

These are national monuments owned by the Country he is thinking about tearing down, not just London.



https://thehill.com/policy/internati...don-mayor-says


The Commission for Diversity in the Public Realm will review the landmarks in the city, including statues and street names, and make a “series of recommendations” regarding which “legacies should be celebrated,” according to the mayor’s announcement.
The commission will focus on increasing representation among black and Asian minority ethnic communities, as well as women, the LGBTQ community and disability groups.
What does that mean, do we have to look forward too, statues of an artificial leg or wheelchair, gay men or women statues, or maybe of a Burkha clad figure?
If you are going after those that made monies from slavery, perhaps it is time to ban all tobacco products as the business was built on slavery, same goes for cotton.

Last edited by NutLoose; 10th Jun 2020 at 00:46.
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Old 10th Jun 2020, 00:34
  #196 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
A fervent supporter of Empire it would seem - and an apologist for war crimes who performed a cover-up of what those on the left would insist were British concentration camps.......

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...cett-s-statue-


Will Sadiq Khan have to knock down Millicent Fawcettís statue?
and/or George Washington from Trafalgar Square?
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Old 10th Jun 2020, 00:54
  #197 (permalink)  
 
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Seems the Americans are having similar problems

https://dailycaller.com/2020/06/09/v...loyd-protests/
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Old 10th Jun 2020, 01:25
  #198 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Seems the Americans are having similar problems

https://dailycaller.com/2020/06/09/v...loyd-protests/

I guess you could say by 1861 the world had figured out that slavery was bad. But Confederates has decided to rebel and start a bloody civil war for the right to keep slaves. A statue of Robert E Lee was inappropriate in 1865, let alone 1890 when it was actually erected, let alone 2020.

Another alternative, which has been done to other statue of historically controversial figures, is to relocate the statues from public squares into museums. When a statue is in a public place it could be viewed as a symbol of honour or pride, whereas in a museum it isnít really there to be worshipped, but studied in a historical context.

This is what happened in Eastern Europe, a lot of Soviet era statues were put in museums to study them in their correct context rather than in the public square to be idolised. Itís probably time for statues of Civil War generals and UK slave traders to not be destroyed but moved to their rightful place.
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Old 10th Jun 2020, 05:30
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
I guess you could say by 1861 the world had figured out that slavery was bad. But Confederates has decided to rebel and start a bloody civil war for the right to keep slaves. A statue of Robert E Lee was inappropriate in 1865, let alone 1890 when it was actually erected, let alone 2020.

Another alternative, which has been done to other statue of historically controversial figures, is to relocate the statues from public squares into museums. When a statue is in a public place it could be viewed as a symbol of honour or pride, whereas in a museum it isnít really there to be worshipped, but studied in a historical context.

This is what happened in Eastern Europe, a lot of Soviet era statues were put in museums to study them in their correct context rather than in the public square to be idolised. Itís probably time for statues of Civil War generals and UK slave traders to not be destroyed but moved to their rightful place.
The majority of 'Raj' statues in India have been repositioned. Some have a bit of damage but most of that was probably transit issues.

In the UK a number of left wing notables and terrorists have statues and memorials. Are we going to take a look at their record and have them removed? Rewriting 'some' history is not good enough. Let's look at it all. If you think. 17 Century slavery was bad, take a look at Marxism, if you are measuring death rates. Slavery, and working previously free people to death, is not just a black history issue.

Statues should represent notable significant figures not victims. Before any replacements go up, let's make sure the individuals are worthy. Ordinary people please. The National Firefighters Memorial, near St Pauls, is a moving example, in my view.

The past is not a perfect place. It's the imperfections which help us improve the present. Agenda politics can push some very inappropriate individuals to the front.

Last edited by Islandlad; 10th Jun 2020 at 05:55.
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Old 10th Jun 2020, 06:36
  #200 (permalink)  
 
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Slavery, and working previously free people to death, is not just a black history issue
Certainly isn't, was common in the past, Vikings, Greece, Romans, Africans are just a few who took slaves. Example, Barbary pirates taking Irish slaves.

https://www.baltimore.ie/the-sack-of-baltimore
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