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Coronavirus: The Thread

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Coronavirus: The Thread

Old 18th Jul 2021, 12:48
  #16441 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
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Originally Posted by Grayfly View Post
According to BBC website:

The prime minister and chancellor will now self-isolate as normal after contact with Health Secretary Sajid Javid, who tested positive for coronavirus.

The reversal comes just hours after they said they would take part in a pilot scheme involving daily testing.

It would appear they can take decisive action when their approval ratings could get damaged.
I think it's a bit of a shame the testing pilot isn't to be used here. Why not roll out the pilot on a larger scale to avoid the crippling isolation orders many workplaces seem to be suffering from right now. A huge chunk of those forced off work will be sitting at home completely fit and healthy and not even have the virus. Others may be ignoring isolation pings and keep going to work and be unknowing spreading it. daily testing would be a great tool right now.
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 12:57
  #16442 (permalink)  
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Looks like people have started freedom a day early.

Haven't been near the beach - I'll wait till tomorrow to enjoy the sun when, hopefully, the weekenders have gone home - including the hen parties who are back in packs again....



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Old 18th Jul 2021, 13:32
  #16443 (permalink)  
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I've just been for a quick stroll through the local rec and another park - both normally pretty busy on a sunny Sunday but barely a soul to be seen - they've clearly all gone to Brighton!
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 17:25
  #16444 (permalink)  
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The sea gull, top left, is spoiled for choice - "I think I'll crap on that fat kid's head and while he's distracted nick his Double 99, then I'll get me a pasty"...
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 18:46
  #16445 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/17/cloth-face-masks-comfort-blankets-do-little-curb-covid-spread/?utm_content=telegraph&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echob
ox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1626526010


Interesting comment from a SAGE advisor.
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 19:05
  #16446 (permalink)  
 
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My understanding was that the masks were there to stop saliva droplets etc being expelled not to stop individual covid viruses.
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 19:26
  #16447 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
My understanding was that the masks were there to stop saliva droplets etc being expelled not to stop individual covid viruses.
“Transmission of the coronavirus is thought to occur through respiratory droplets that are released when people speak, sneeze, or talk, according to Dr. MeiLan Han, a professor of medicine in the division of pulmonary and critical care at the University of Michigan”

That was always my understanding. It was the fine aerosols that enabled transmission.

https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...why-masks-work







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Old 18th Jul 2021, 21:51
  #16448 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
My understanding was that the masks were there to stop saliva droplets etc being expelled not to stop individual covid viruses.
Nope. A nudge. We are all in it together.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 07:33
  #16449 (permalink)  
 
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Masks, use of:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7293495/

Section 5 if you can’t be bothered to read it all

My tenpennorth:
The recent suggestion by DrAxon that masks are useless suits the Telegraph’s anti mask, anti lockdown stance but I question his assumptions.
He makes the analogy of throwing marbles through scaffolding based on the size of a viron and the mesh size of a cloth mask. As has already been pointed out, the virons are entrained in droplets which are much larger. Secondly, if you look at a cloth mesh under a microscope, it could not look much less like scaffolding, it is not regular and there are stray fibres hanging from the main mesh, so a better analogy would be badly overgrown scaffolding. Thirdly the flow of air through mask is turbulent rather than laminar. Fourthly, there are layers of cloth in a mask so the holes in the mesh do not line up. Fifthly, in real use, a layer of moisture droplets builds up on the mask which further reduces the aperture of the mesh and those water droplets that are blown clear during exhalation will be relatively large and will have a shorter trajectory. Lastly, the mask acts to reduce the velocity of the airflow so particles passing through the mask do not travel as far.
While masks have limitations, I suggest they do have an effects, the better the mask or the more layers, the more the effect.

Last edited by Ninthace; 19th Jul 2021 at 08:56.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 07:46
  #16450 (permalink)  
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Just visited Tesco... maintaining screens at checkout etc but the last vestiges of the external queuing system have gone. Not many customers in at 7am but staff and most older people were masked up - inevitably the few younger customers (ie under 30) I saw were mostly maskless.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 08:22
  #16451 (permalink)  
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 10:21
  #16452 (permalink)  
 
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Having my test to return from France later today. Playing devil's advocate here, but: What would prevent me from getting the ferry to Dublin, driving up through Ireland and crossing to the mainland?
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 10:33
  #16453 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
Masks, use of:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7293495/

Section 5 if you can’t be bothered to read it all

My tenpennorth:
The recent suggestion by DrAxon that masks are useless suits the Telegraph’s anti mask, anti lockdown stance but I question his assumptions.
He makes the analogy of throwing marbles through scaffolding based on the size of a viron and the mesh size of a cloth mask. As has already been pointed out, the virons are entrained in droplets which are much larger. Secondly, if you look at a cloth mesh under a microscope, it could not look much less like scaffolding, it is not regular and there are stray fibres hanging from the main mesh, so a better analogy would be badly overgrown scaffolding. Thirdly the flow of air through mask is turbulent rather than laminar. Fourthly, there are layers of cloth in a mask so the holes in the mesh do not line up. Fifthly, in real use, a layer of moisture droplets builds up on the mask which further reduces the aperture of the mesh and those water droplets that are blown clear during exhalation will be relatively large and will have a shorter trajectory. Lastly, the mask acts to reduce the velocity of the airflow so particles passing through the mask do not travel as far.
While masks have limitations, I suggest they do have an effects, the better the mask or the more layers, the more the effect.
Don’t forget to factor in that most cloth face coverings are worn, become damp through use, end up screwed up in a pocket or a handbag and then repeatedly reused and barely, if ever, washed. Certainly judging by the state of most of those out in parade in my local shops. It’s also apparent that many of the disposable blue paper masks are just reused as the folds are not longer crisp and not snug against the wearers face.

Medical staff change theirs every 15 minutes or each new patient.

Read this from the BMJ in 2015:

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577


”Conclusions This study is the first RCT of cloth masks, and the results caution against the use of cloth masks. This is an important finding to inform occupational health and safety. Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection. Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally. However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated“

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Old 19th Jul 2021, 11:16
  #16454 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by treadigraph View Post
Just visited Tesco... maintaining screens at checkout etc but the last vestiges of the external queuing system have gone. Not many customers in at 7am but staff and most older people were masked up - inevitably the few younger customers (ie under 30) I saw were mostly maskless.
100% mask compliance at our local supermarket this morning.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 11:16
  #16455 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BWSBoy6 View Post
Don’t forget to factor in that most cloth face coverings are worn, become damp through use, end up screwed up in a pocket or a handbag and then repeatedly reused and barely, if ever, washed. Certainly judging by the state of most of those out in parade in my local shops. It’s also apparent that many of the disposable blue paper masks are just reused as the folds are not longer crisp and not snug against the wearers face.

Medical staff change theirs every 15 minutes or each new patient.

Read this from the BMJ in 2015:

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577


”Conclusions This study is the first RCT of cloth masks, and the results caution against the use of cloth masks. This is an important finding to inform occupational health and safety. Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection. Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally. However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated“
When working we are expressly banned from wearing fabric masks, only surgical masks are acceptable.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 11:17
  #16456 (permalink)  
 
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Don’t forget to factor in that most cloth face coverings are worn, become damp through use, end up screwed up in a pocket or a handbag and then repeatedly reused and barely, if ever, washed. Certainly judging by the state of most of those out in parade in my local shops. It’s also apparent that many of the disposable blue paper masks are just reused as the folds are not longer crisp and not snug against the wearers face.

Medical staff change theirs every 15 minutes or each new patient.

Read this from the BMJ in 2015:
Still missing the point.

If you are in a high hazard environment, such as a hospital or dental surgery, you wear PPE of the required standard, to protect yourself
If you are not in those environments, then you wear a facemask to protect others from you

I wish people would stop conflating these two separate issues
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 11:19
  #16457 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Having my test to return from France later today. Playing devil's advocate here, but: What would prevent me from getting the ferry to Dublin, driving up through Ireland and crossing to the mainland?
Cost?
You will still need to fill in a passenger locator form for the RoI, and you are trusted to give correct info. Dunno about Cairnryan, but at Holyhead all the vehicles from the ferry that we were on were stopped for questioning about how long we had been in Ireland, and if we had been outside Ireland in the previous 10 (?) days. Depends on how much effort someone wants to take to check up.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 12:21
  #16458 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Widger View Post
Still missing the point.

If you are in a high hazard environment, such as a hospital or dental surgery, you wear PPE of the required standard, to protect yourself
If you are not in those environments, then you wear a facemask to protect others from you

I wish people would stop conflating these two separate issues
Why am I missing the point?

An ineffective face covering is an ineffective face covering - for whoever’s benefit it’s being worn for.

The difference is; those in a bio hazardous environment appreciate, use and understand the appropriate use of masks. The general public think that sticking a grubby piece of material over their faces is the equivalent of Fort Knox against Covid.

If you recall, all governments decreed that masks were the way to go last year, but to avoid a rush and a shortage of medical grade items, they took a view that anything is better than nothing and pushed the idea of cloth face coverings.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 12:32
  #16459 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Face masks

Just a reminder:
Low-cost measurement of face mask efficacy for filtering expelled droplets during speech
https://advances.sciencemag.org/cont...d3083.full.pdf
Mandates for mask use in public during the recent coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic, worsened by global shortage of commercial supplies, have led to widespread use of homemade masks and mask alternatives. It is assumed that wearing such masks reduces the likelihood for an infected person to spread the disease, but many of these mask designs have not been tested in practice. We have demonstrated a simple optical measurement method to evaluate the efficacy of masks to reduce the transmission of respiratory droplets during regular speech. In proof-of-principle studies, we compared a variety of commonly available mask types and observed that some mask types approach the performance of standard surgical masks, while some mask alternatives, such as neck gaiters or bandanas, offer very little protection. Our measurement setup is inexpensive and can be built and operated by nonexperts, allowing for rapid evaluation of mask performance during speech, sneezing, or coughing.




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Old 19th Jul 2021, 13:04
  #16460 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Peter H View Post
Just a reminder:
Low-cost measurement of face mask efficacy for filtering expelled droplets during speech
https://advances.sciencemag.org/cont...d3083.full.pdf
Mandates for mask use in public during the recent coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic, worsened by global shortage of commercial supplies, have led to widespread use of homemade masks and mask alternatives. It is assumed that wearing such masks reduces the likelihood for an infected person to spread the disease, but many of these mask designs have not been tested in practice. We have demonstrated a simple optical measurement method to evaluate the efficacy of masks to reduce the transmission of respiratory droplets during regular speech. In proof-of-principle studies, we compared a variety of commonly available mask types and observed that some mask types approach the performance of standard surgical masks, while some mask alternatives, such as neck gaiters or bandanas, offer very little protection. Our measurement setup is inexpensive and can be built and operated by nonexperts, allowing for rapid evaluation of mask performance during speech, sneezing, or coughing.




Interesting. But the words “it is assumed” and “have not been tested in practice” tend to jump out a bit at me.

Try telling the public that their aircraft flying them to Lanzarote “has not been tested in practice” and “it is assumed” it is man enough for the job but don’t worry, you can set up this simple little test quite easily to test its efficacy.even if you’re a ‘nonexpert’ you can do it!

For an experiment to reflect accurate results, it surely needs constant measurements - a control - and measured variants?


I know that’s a bit of a trite answer, but we’ve all been asked to put our faith (and to a greater extent, our lives) in these things based on pretty flimsy scientific research and evidence apart from a few cartoons. Talk about trying to blind the public with ‘pseudo scientific’ graphs and info!



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