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Coronavirus: The Thread

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Coronavirus: The Thread

Old 17th Jul 2021, 16:23
  #16421 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: France
Posts: 465
"That it was a very naive decision to book or prepay something like this involving travel at the moment unfortunately is abundantly clear." I hear you force niner AN2Driver, but to get a place on what is to all intents and purposes a training course to improve one's employment prospects often requires putting your money where your mouth is. The same thing may well apply to other more 'regular' industries, but if there is no take up because nobody will commit, and put their hand in their pocket, then such courses will never happen. That said, I get what you're saying ... but at the time this young man paid for his place, several months ago, there was none of the faff and faddle of the 'Amber Plus' regulations or uncertainties of the last month.
Fingers crossed ... but preferably not while seated at the keyboard!
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Old 17th Jul 2021, 19:16
  #16422 (permalink)  
 
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To be honest BWSBoy6, not only do I not think we are on the same page, I am not sure we are even in the same library.
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Old 17th Jul 2021, 20:16
  #16423 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
No, to me excessive speed and failure to vaccinate are both examples of the same thing, thoughtless selfishness.
Comments?
Quick to judge people. I make my own decisions but would never be so presumptuous as to make a decision for any one else. They may have their own reasons for speeding and not being vaccinated. As it so happens I have been vaccinated. I really do not think I need to be but have just given in to this tsunami of propaganda from the Govt. They have never put forward any counter argument i.e. why not be vaccinated.
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Old 17th Jul 2021, 20:22
  #16424 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Originally Posted by Planemike View Post
Quick to judge people. I make my own decisions but would never be so presumptuous as to make a decision for any one else. They may have their own reasons for speeding and not being vaccinated. As it so happens I have been vaccinated. I really do not think I need to be but have just given in to this tsunami of propaganda from the Govt. They have never put forward any counter argument i.e. why not be vaccinated.
Judgemental yes - but I gave my reasons. The impact on other people and society. Either you care or you don't. I was bought up to think of others.
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Old 17th Jul 2021, 20:54
  #16425 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Planemike View Post
As it so happens I have been vaccinated. I really do not think I need to be but have just given in to this tsunami of propaganda from the Govt.
Out of interest, if you don't believe that being vaccinated is to protect you and everyone around you from the consequences of Covid, have you reached any view as to what might be the alternative purpose of the aforementioned Government propaganda ?
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Old 17th Jul 2021, 21:19
  #16426 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Originally Posted by Planemike View Post
Quick to judge people. I make my own decisions but would never be so presumptuous as to make a decision for any one else. They may have their own reasons for speeding and not being vaccinated. As it so happens I have been vaccinated. I really do not think I need to be but have just given in to this tsunami of propaganda from the Govt. They have never put forward any counter argument i.e. why not be vaccinated.
Surely the argument for being vaccinated is the same as the case for "why not be vaccinated"?
So, had you not lacked the moral courage, you would have refused to be vaccinated? In that case, why don't you address the arguments I gave for being vaccinated and justify why you feel you are in some way special. If you do not think you are special, oh modest one, then the implication is in your eyes no-one else should be vaccinated either. I would be interested to see your case for global non-vaccination too.

In the meantime, come Monday, off the mask you hate and head for the nearest crowded space and breath deeply.
You might want to take this with you
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavi...getting-tested

PS. Did you do the reading I suggested?
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Old 17th Jul 2021, 21:34
  #16427 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
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Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
Judgemental yes - but I gave my reasons. The impact on other people and society. Either you care or you don't. I was bought up to think of others.
Hmm. Are you absolutely sure you are being completely altruistic - nothing at all to do with the fact that the greater the number infected, the risk to you personally becomes higher? Or are you truly that concerned about the welfare of your fellow man?

if so, how do you quantify and justify the impact on society causing the destruction of peoples lives, their health, their livelihoods, their family dynamics, the denying of the right to see a dying relative, to visit an elderly relative stuck in a care home, the loss of millions of children’s education that they’ll never get back, the cancer diagnoses missed - basically because Covid trumps everything?
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Old 17th Jul 2021, 22:29
  #16428 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BWSBoy6 View Post
Hmm. Are you absolutely sure you are being completely altruistic - nothing at all to do with the fact that the greater the number infected, the risk to you personally becomes higher? Or are you truly that concerned about the welfare of your fellow man?

if so, how do you quantify and justify the impact on society causing the destruction of peoples lives, their health, their livelihoods, their family dynamics, the denying of the right to see a dying relative, to visit an elderly relative stuck in a care home, the loss of millions of children’s education that they’ll never get back, the cancer diagnoses missed - basically because Covid trumps everything?
Self interest is in there for my family to be sure but then yes, sorry to disappoint you, but I do have a concern for society. I spent 30 years defending it.

To answer your second point, no I cannot quantify the impact but consider this. Had the government acted sooner and more aggressively in terms of border control, lockdowns and track, test, trace and isolate, then the disruption may have been shorter and more localised so some of the impacts you suggest may have either been unnecessary or of shorter duration. Had the government, not ignored the lessons learned from the pandemic exercise held before Covid, there could well have been adequate stocks of PPE and proper plans in place. The things you rail about are a consequence of the government’s failures in planning and management, coupled with similar failures in other tiers of management in the health and social care industry, resulting in one size fits all, blanket solutions. Some of our problems probably even stem from the failure to have an integrated health and social care policy in the first place.

As to children’s education. I would love to see an argument suggesting that letting the disease run its course without intervention would have had a better outcome. Bear in mind vaccines have only been rolling out for the last few months and teachers were not a priority. Before that, a higher incidence of disease would have overwhelmed not only the health service but other functions too, including teaching. It does not take many teachers to be away before a school cannot function. So, without an adequate number of teachers, how would you have kept the schools open? Moreover, could you in all conscience keep open institutions that fostered the transmission of disease between children and back to their parents and grandparents (remember, in your world, no lock down).

It is one thing to rail against what has happened and granted a lot of it has been ham fisted and amateurish in the extreme but I am yet to be convinced not doing anything would have been better or would have had a lesser impact, I have outlined where I think HMG has failed us but you seem to want a lesser degree of intervention. Why would this have been better? Would it have prevented more deaths, thrown up more hospital places, improved children’s education, or allowed us to visit the sick with risking their health?
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Old 17th Jul 2021, 22:47
  #16429 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Yesterday my daughter and her family came to lunch on their way to celebrate their other granny’s birthday over the weekend, prior to proceeding on holiday. Today she got a message saying one of her kids had been in contact with another child who has tested positive. So that is 2 sets of grandparents and 3 other families, 15 people in all, having to isolate until he is tested and beyond that if he is comes up positive. This sort of thing must be happening all over and can only get worse as restrictions are lifted and while cases rise.
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Old 17th Jul 2021, 23:06
  #16430 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bolton ENGLAND
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Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
Surely the argument for being vaccinated is the same as the case for "why not be vaccinated"?
So, had you not lacked the moral courage, you would have refused to be vaccinated? In that case, why don't you address the arguments I gave for being vaccinated and justify why you feel you are in some way special. If you do not think you are special, oh modest one, then the implication is in your eyes no-one else should be vaccinated either. I would be interested to see your case for global non-vaccination too.

In the meantime, come Monday, off the mask you hate and head for the nearest crowded space and breath deeply.
You might want to take this with you
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavi...getting-tested

PS. Did you do the reading I suggested?
If that was to do with "modelling", yes I did read it...
No lack of moral courage, I just succumbed to Govt pressure to become vaccinated. I have no case against global vaccination. If an individual chooses it, that is their business... Why are we subjected to propaganda....Have hardly used a mask, only at the request of my hairdresser and when I attended to be vaccinated... Yes, I do hate them. I prefer to see peoples faces clearly and unobstructed. They make speech less clear. After use they can add to the litter which adorns our streets. Masks should be confined to where they are necessary, mainly in medical settings or dusty environments.. In the meantime millions of pounds are being made by those who manufacture and sell them...
RE: testing. I have not been tested and unless I feel unwell will probably leave it that way. Not quite true, I did complete one test. I am part of a large research programme and was sent a test kit. I completed it. Negative, reported the result.
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Old 17th Jul 2021, 23:10
  #16431 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Out of interest, if you don't believe that being vaccinated is to protect you and everyone around you from the consequences of Covid, have you reached any view as to what might be the alternative purpose of the aforementioned Government propaganda ?
Simple answer..... I do not have clue.
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Old 17th Jul 2021, 23:26
  #16432 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
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Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
Yesterday my daughter and her family came to lunch on their way to celebrate their other granny’s birthday over the weekend, prior to proceeding on holiday. Today she got a message saying one of her kids had been in contact with another child who has tested positive. So that is 2 sets of grandparents and 3 other families, 15 people in all, having to isolate until he is tested and beyond that if he is comes up positive. This sort of thing must be happening all over and can only get worse as restrictions are lifted and while cases rise.
Hang on, have I mis read the advice? I thought, in your example, it is the child that was in contact that needs to isolate only.
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Old 17th Jul 2021, 23:56
  #16433 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
So if lockdowns don't work, as has been suggested on this forum on several occasions, is Gladys right to try to strengthen the current lockdown? Does she have an alternative, what would the impact of that alternative be, and would the good folks of NSW and the surrounding states be up for it?
Well, in the previous 8 months Australia had a grand total of 3 (three) COVID deaths. In the last 10 days they had only 3 more deaths, and you have to remember that July in Australia is the equivalent of January in the northern hemisphere. Their total for the pandemic is still under 1000 deaths at the moment, and their number of excess deaths is actually negative, because the anti-COVID restrictions also stopped the flu. So, whatever they did so far seems to have worked better than many would have expected. And their economy is not doing bad at all:


Source: https://data.oecd.org/chart/6qpY
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 00:39
  #16434 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
Hang on, have I mis read the advice? I thought, in your example, it is the child that was in contact that needs to isolate only.
In theory, however, if you knew you had been in contact with a potential positive, it is the prudent thing to do pending his test result. If he tests positive tomorrow, then we all become close contacts, for example he and I cooked lunch for the family yesterday and granny had her first hugs in ages The other grand parents and families have been at a communal gathering for over 24 hours.
At least that is how I understand it. If he comes out negative, then according to NHS track and trace advice taken today, who were told what had happened and the circumstances of the contact with the other child, he may carry on under parental surveillance and we can relax.
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 05:11
  #16435 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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Time to follow the French and make a vaccine passport mandatory for pins, clubs and cafes - or start offering bribes?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/p...niks-lvtqzcbdj


Under-30 jab refuseniks

Ministers and NHS chiefs are increasingly concerned about the plummeting uptake of Covid vaccines as a new analysis reveals that 3 million people under the age of 30 have not yet been jabbed.

The figures have sparked fears in Whitehall that vaccine hesitancy and feelings of “invincibility” among the young could lead to a dramatic surge in infections after England’s remaining restrictions are lifted tomorrow.

The NHS vaccination programme has enjoyed huge success among the middle-aged and older people.

More than 92 per cent of the over-50s have had at least one dose, according to NHS England data. But uptake by younger people remains much lower, particularly men aged between 18 and 24, the group with the lowest uptake at 57 per cent. One million men in this cohort have not been vaccinated….

Uptake levels are only slightly better — 63 per cent — among men aged 25-29. In total, 1,762,425 men under 30 have not had a first dose.

The uptake level among women is slightly better, at 66 per cent for 18-to-24-year-olds and 70 per cent among ages 25-29. However, it still means 1,342,071 women under 30 have not been jabbed…..

Will Budd, 25, a member of Team Halo — doctors and scientists backed by the UN who make TikTok videos countering vaccine misinformation — said some young people saw no need to get vaccinated, as Covid is “more likely to have a detrimental effect on the elderly”. He added that young men tend to feel invincible.

Budd, a clinical research physician at Imperial College London, said both sexes also shared a fear that the vaccine can affect fertility. “It’s understandable that as a young adult you would not want to do anything to jeopardise your chances of having a child. Of course, there is no evidence to support the claim.”….

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f...m-up-qkft6rgzr

France tempts teens with chance to shoot-’em-up

Worried that not enough young people are getting their Covid-19 jabs, the authorities in Avignon in southern France have come up with a novel solution: 12- to 30-year-olds have been urged to upload a photo or video to Instagram promoting the benefits of vaccination.

The person whose posting tagged #jeunesvaccinées — “young and vaccinated”, in effect — receives the most likes will win two tickets to a concert next month by David Guetta, the veteran French DJ, in the nearby town of Orange, as well as a trip to a local military base where they can try out helicopter and target-shooting simulations.

The Greek government, by contrast, is taking a more direct approach: it has offered all those aged 18-25 a €150 cash card and a free month of mobile phone data in return for a shot.…

The problem in part in many countries is that people in their twenties and thirties… there are also signs of vaccine hesitancy: one in four Americans aged 18-25 said they “probably” or “definitely” would not get jabbed, according to a study… published last week. Respondents cited possible side effects including reports of heart inflammation following the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna jabs.

In Japan, where cases are surging again, authorities say that false claims and misinformation about vaccines on social media are undermining trust. In Turkey, claims that the jab can damage fertility are proving a serious problem….


Official responses have not been confined to handing out gifts or targeted advertising campaigns. Restrictions being introduced in some countries — including the growing use of “health passes” that need to be shown for entry to venues — also appear designed to motivate the young.

In France, which has begun to roll out its pass sanitaire, proof of vaccination or a recent negative test result will soon be compulsory for visits to bars, restaurants and clubs, as well as other places where people congregate…..

The mere announcement of the plan by President Emmanuel Macron in a television address last Monday appears to have had an effect: more than two million people have since signed up for jabs….

Which inducements will ultimately prove most effective in persuading people to get jabbed? A survey of 20,000 Germans showed that financial incentives, increased liberties and the ability to get vaccinated all worked — although their effectiveness depended on age and gender.

“Younger men seem to respond mostly strongly to cash,” said Macartan Humphreys, a professor of political science at Columbia University in New York who co-authored the study. The offer of just €50 was enough to push vaccination rates up by 5 per cent, “though enhanced freedoms also make a difference”.

Young women, by contrast, appeared to respond most strongly to the prospect of more freedom.
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 07:10
  #16436 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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should make the SNP happy...

.https://order-order.com/2021/07/16/n...tside-england/

NHS App Cannot Recognise Covid Vaccine Doses Given Outside England

With the government turning back towards the idea of Covid passports, they might want to make sure their passport app actually works before they get too trigger-happy with any legislation.

New emails passed to Guido between a patient and the NHS App support team reveal that those who received their first doses in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, and then travelled to England for their second, don’t currently appear as double-jabbed in the NHS Covid Pass app:

“At the moment vaccines administered overseas or in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland cannot be recorded within the NHS England vaccinations database (NIMS) so no vaccine certificate is currently available from the NHS.

This issue is being worked on and an update is expected shortly.”



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Old 18th Jul 2021, 08:11
  #16437 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Time to follow the French and make a vaccine passport mandatory for pins, clubs and cafes - or start offering bribes?.
I feel a song coming on...

Young, gifted and jabbed...
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 09:31
  #16438 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1998
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No, to me excessive speed and failure to vaccinate are both examples of the same thing, thoughtless selfishness.

Comments?
Geez Ninthace, take a chill pill and perhaps cut back on having too many opinions on everything. Even though we know more about this virus than we did 16 months ago, we still know bugger all about it. I wish VP was still able to post on here, he was one of the better speculators on the subject.
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 09:57
  #16439 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Originally Posted by cattletruck View Post
Geez Ninthace, take a chill pill and perhaps cut back on having too many opinions on everything. Even though we know more about this virus than we did 16 months ago, we still know bugger all about it. I wish VP was still able to post on here, he was one of the better speculators on the subject.
I would have thought by now it was one of the most studied viruses of all time. Opinions are like a'''holes, we've all got one. Fell free to share. This is Jet Blast after all.
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 10:50
  #16440 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: England
Posts: 33
According to BBC website:

The prime minister and chancellor will now self-isolate as normal after contact with Health Secretary Sajid Javid, who tested positive for coronavirus.

The reversal comes just hours after they said they would take part in a pilot scheme involving daily testing.

It would appear they can take decisive action when their approval ratings could get damaged.

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