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People to be punished?

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People to be punished?

Old 14th Jan 2020, 13:20
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People to be punished?

From the Wikipedia article about Iran Air 655, shot down by USS Vincennes in 1988 in which 290 people were killed. The aircraft was brought down while flying over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, along the flights usual route:

"When questioned in a 2000 BBC documentary, the U.S. government stated in a written answer that they believed the incident may have been caused by a simultaneous psychological condition amongst the eighteen bridge crew of Vincennes, called "scenario fulfillment", which is said to occur when persons are under pressure. In such a situation, the men will carry out a training scenario, believing it to be reality while ignoring sensory information that contradicts the scenario. In the case of this incident, the scenario was an attack by a lone military aircraft".

At the time of the shooting down of the Ukrainian flight Iran was anticipating a retaliatory attack by the US for their missile strike on bases in Iraq, probably by cruise missiles. There was probably a crew of just three at the anti aircraft battery, not 18. Let's not forget that Mr Trump had stated that any attack on American assets would trigger a "disproportionate" response on 52 sites within Iran, some cultural.

I am not condoning what happened, just pointing out what can happen, and has happened, in the 'fog of war'. Despite the mistakes made in the downing of Iran Air 655, the men of USS Vincennes were awarded Combat Action Ribbons for completion of their tours in a combat zone. The air-warfare coordinator on duty received the Navy Commendation Medal.In 1990, the ships captain (Rogers) was awarded the Legion of Merit "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer [...] from April 1987 to May 1989." The award was given for his service as the commanding officer of Vincennes from April 1987 to May 1989. The citation made no mention of the downing of Iran Air 655.

DV

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Old 14th Jan 2020, 14:18
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Personally, I think that the only reason that people are now being arrested and charged over the incident is in the hope that it diverts the attention away from those who lied when denying that the aircraft had been shot down by their own armed forces.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 15:27
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Distant Voice: The same thoughts have been rattling around in my head and i agree with your post.
419: I wouldn't want to put myself forward as an Iran apologist but, having listened many times on news broadcasts to the accusation that Iran had initially lied about events. I wonder of it possible that the people with the finger on the trigger realised their mistake and lied to their superiors in an attempt to save their own necks? The superiors may then have reported further up the chain that which they had been told by the minions and eventually the truth came out.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 15:39
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If Iran had put their hands up straight away and said "sorry, we screwed up", then a lot of the furore would have quickly subsided...

even in these enlightned times, people still dont ;like being lied to....
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 19:10
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I‘m fairly certain the two or three at the bottom of the chain will take the blame and an example made of them.

That way, those above will escape any recriminations as ‘justice’ has been seen to be done...
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 21:37
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Originally Posted by Saintsman View Post
I‘m fairly certain the two or three at the bottom of the chain will take the blame and an example made of them.

That way, those above will escape any recriminations as ‘justice’ has been seen to be done...
One can save lives (the two or three at the bottom) by just one higher up falling on their sword
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 22:28
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Was the SAM unit actively engaging an enemy unit at the time of the shoot-down?

No

Was the USS Vincennes actively engaging an enemy unit at the time of the shoot-down?

Yes

Did the SAM unit attempt to contact the target to verify intentions prior to firing?

No

Did USS Vincennes attempt to contact the target to verify intentions prior to firing?

Yes - 10 times

Comparable?

Kind of...
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 23:32
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Originally Posted by Saintsman View Post
I‘m fairly certain the two or three at the bottom of the chain will take the blame and an example made of them.

That way, those above will escape any recriminations as ‘justice’ has been seen to be done...
Rouhani has already implied that higher-ups are not blameless - "The responsibility falls on more than just one person".
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Old 15th Jan 2020, 08:49
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Errr, one of those arrested was the person that filmed the shoot down under the pretext of national security.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51114945
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Old 15th Jan 2020, 10:45
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"Pretext of national security" in this case meaning: Making video available to foreign media thus exposing government lies, deception and ineptitude,
harming Iran's virtuous standing as a victim and underdog in the world.

Shooting down an airliner on a standard departure track, under the control of Iranian ATC, after a dozen or so prior flights similarly departed
is more than just plain incompetence, fog or no fog.

Wouldn't put it past them to have done it on purpose.
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Old 15th Jan 2020, 11:21
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Wouldn't put it past them to have done it on purpose.
Why would they do that?

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Old 15th Jan 2020, 21:04
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Errr, one of those arrested was the person that filmed the shoot down under the pretext of national security.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51114945
Of course! Without the video they could have kept the cover up going forever.
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Old 15th Jan 2020, 22:46
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Why site a SAM battery under the flight path from the main international airport? Does anyone seriously expect that not one airliner could overfly it?

Why fire SAM missiles when it was clear from the radar track, flight path and speed that it was climbing away from the airport, and not an intruder aircraft whose flight originated outside of Iranian airspace.

From the first available videos, it seemed strange to me that the camera recorded hundreds of small burning fragments being "blown" across as if by a wind storm. An airliner losing an engine etc doesn't fragment into tiny pieces until it has struck the ground and even then, rarely are the pieces already alight.

Only when you factor in a SAM strike does the video make more sense.

OK, they were on a heightened state of alert, but mistaking an airliner climbing from a spot less than 3 miles away for a fast ground hugging attack is schoolboy error.
Were pilots even aware of the SAM site underneath their flight path?
But then the Iranian Revolutionary Guard are a law unto themselves.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 16:13
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Why did they not interrogate the secondary radar transponder on the airliner? Then they would have known that it wasn't an incoming missile.
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Old 17th Jan 2020, 05:44
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Originally Posted by currawong View Post
Was the SAM unit actively engaging an enemy unit at the time of the shoot-down?

No

Was the USS Vincennes actively engaging an enemy unit at the time of the shoot-down?

Yes

Did the SAM unit attempt to contact the target to verify intentions prior to firing?

No

Did USS Vincennes attempt to contact the target to verify intentions prior to firing?

Yes - 10 times

Comparable?

Kind of...
-Yes, the USS Vincennes was "so" actively engaging enemy that they ended up inside Iran's territorial water during their ordeal.
-Attempted to contact 10 times? Seven of those calls were in HF, not VHF.

And I can tell you from past experiences that it is far from obvious to realize that they are talking to you when this happen!
I'm referring about Navy ships calls on 121.5. Not flight interceptions.

-They don't give your registration or flight number.
-They only identify themselves as "Warship"
-They use reporting points, speed and altitude to state your position that are not necessary standard or clear cut to understand.

We got a call by a Malaysian Navy ship on 121.5 while doing offshore survey in the Malacca Strait at 300' ASL. They were fully aware of our presence and what we were doing (they ended up just offering assistance if we needed) And I suspect used this occasion as a practice call.
Another time, still in the Malacca strait but flying 5NM square boxes at 10,000' under a flight plan, radar control and all the required permits, a French Navy ship started to call for an aircraft apparently in distress.
It took quite a while to realize they were actually talking to us as we were definitely not in a restricted area, low level or having any issues. But our squares were what triggered them.


As well, they offered support.
Fortunately their confusion was about distress and not threat.
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Old 17th Jan 2020, 06:27
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Are you saying the Iranian SAM crew did attempt to call?

"Yes, the USS Vincennes was "so" actively engaging enemy that they ended up inside Iran's territorial water during their ordeal."

Right of hot pursuit, having been fired upon, one would think.
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Old 17th Jan 2020, 10:46
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Originally Posted by currawong View Post
Are you saying the Iranian SAM crew did attempt to call?

"Yes, the USS Vincennes was "so" actively engaging enemy that they ended up inside Iran's territorial water during their ordeal."

Right of hot pursuit, having been fired upon, one would think.
Are you kidding?

In the morning of 3 July 1988, USS Vincennes was passing through the Strait of Hormuz returning from an escort duty.[2]A helicopter deployed from the cruiser reportedly received small arms fire from Iranian patrol vessels as it observed from high altitude. Vincennes moved to engage the Iranian vessels, in the course of which they all violated Omani waters and left after being challenged and ordered to leave by a Royal Navy of Oman warship.[24]Vincennes then pursued the Iranian gunboats, entering Iranian territorial waters to open fire. Two other US Navy ships, USS Sides and USS Elmer Montgomery, were nearby. Thus, Vincennes was in Iranian territorial waters at the time of the incident, as admitted by the U.S. government in legal briefs and publicly by Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral William J. Crowe, on Nightline.[25][26]Admiral Crowe denied a U.S. government coverup of the incident and claimed that the cruiser's helicopter was over international waters initially, when the gunboats first fired upon it.[25][27]Contrary to the accounts of various Vincennes crew members, the cruiser's Aegis Combat System recorded that the airliner was climbing at the time and its radio transmitter was squawking on only the Mode III civilian frequency, and not on the military Mode II.[28]
A military helicopter in an unknown position receives small arms fire while at high altitude and you consider a warship to be under attack?
Shouldn't this be enough you also think this gives them the right to enter Omani and Iranian national waters and shoot down an airliner flying into Iranian airspace? After the same airliner was positively identified as civilian by two different US warships?

And before you start questioning why they fired on the heli in first place...the following happened 1 month before the shoot down.
on 2 June, when Rogers had sailed Vincennes too close to an Iranian frigate undertaking a lawful search of a bulk carrier, launched a helicopter within 2–3 miles (3.2–4.8 km) of a small Iranian craft despite rules of engagement requiring a four-mile (6.4 km) separation, and opened fire on small Iranian military boats.

Wiki

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Old 17th Jan 2020, 11:30
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"And before you start questioning why they fired on the heli in first place...the following happened 1 month before the shoot down."

One month before...

Are you kidding?


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Old 17th Jan 2020, 12:00
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Originally Posted by currawong View Post
"And before you start questioning why they fired on the heli in first place...the following happened 1 month before the shoot down."

One month before...

Are you kidding?
Don't know...maybe being attacked with no valid reason and not respecting the ROE just a month before prompted the Iranians to open fire first this time.

But hey, you know better for sure!

Feel free to answer to the rest of my previous post...
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Old 17th Jan 2020, 23:47
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Operations Earnest Will, Prime Chance, Nimble Archer and Praying Mantis refer.

Or put simply, the action surrounding the capture of the vessel Iran Ajr while mine laying in international waters are indicative of the times.

Not that it matters, the end result remains the same. Which makes the incidents comparable.

That said I do not believe the lead up to each event to be comparable.

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